Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tears for the Dying


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The nominator's rationale was supported and built on by established Wikipedians, referencing Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and those opposed to deleting did not present any policy-based refutation. Daniel (talk) 23:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Tears for the Dying

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Unsourced article about a local band which appears to fail WP:MUSICBIO. While they get some coverage in local media and genre specific outlets, and one member in particular has received coverage in relation to the queer punk movement , none of it amounts to the in-depth coverage by reliable sources that MUSICBIO/GNG requires. (Full disclosure: this nomination was suggested to me by on my talk page, inspired by some related bands that I nominated yesterday.) Lennart97 (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Lennart97 (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Georgia (U.S. state)-related deletion discussions. Lennart97 (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - As stated, the nominator and I are in agreement on this one. Group member Adria Stembridge has gained some media notice as an influencer in queer punk (e.g., ) and might even qualify for a dedicated article. But in its own right, this band has received little coverage beyond local interviews, and is usually only mentioned as one of Stembridge's endeavors. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 18:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Retain - Article clearly meets WP:MUSICBIO criteria #1, having multiple instances of global, national and regional prominent, non-trivial press coverage  .  Setting aside the fact that this band page very clearly meets Wikipedia's [|notability qualification], queer and specifically transgendered artists have limited visibility due to built-in biases in [|cis-het] culture, the continued retention of this band page does far more good than harm. Trans individuals lack visible and positive role models, and without such, many are left closeted and alone; and many undoubtedly suffer from depression and some may even attempt suicide from feeling secluded and ostracized. Removing this article removes a visible and prominent trans artist's Wiki page from individuals searching for those like themselves. This article should remain in place and this AfD removed. ---  Adria_Stembridge  (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not the only website in the world in which someone can get noticed, and the above vote shows little knowledge of this site's notability qualifications. Also, I noted that Adria Stembridge could possibly qualify for an article of their own, but that must survive the same analysis. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 18:48, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Per notability qualifications, this band "has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself". Global and national "non-trivial" articles on Kerrang and Alternative Press, as well as multiple examples of regional press listed in the Retain vote above clearly meet this plainly worded qualification. I stand by my recommendation that this AfD be removed and the page in question remain in place.  Whether or not there is an additional article for the individual musician has nothing to do with this specific AfD discussion. ---  Adria_Stembridge  (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 13:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Retain - I'm going to agree with retaining the article. The band has, as the previous retention mentioned, appeared - in national press([7])([8]) as well as regional and queer press([9])([10]) ([11]) ([12]) ([13]). This meets the terms of notability under "Criteria for musicians and ensembles" criteria 1 which states that a band has to appear in multiple nontrivial published works which cannot be a self promotion or manufacturers advertising . This article should remain in place and this AfD removed. Villain105 (talk) 18:56, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * RETAIN: Tears For The Dying is a notable band within the Death Rock genre with a following as well as influential within the genre. They should be researchable on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:80:8681:3BB0:6D02:3109:4EB0:3C08 (talk) 20:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Retain: The Tears For The Dying page clearly meets section one of wikipedia's notability standards as outlined in previous articles. Tears For the Dying holds a long list of appearances on multiple nontrivial published works in which are not self promotion or advertisement. Other members belonging to marginalized communities have given quotes on noteable published works. We need pages like this on Wikipedia specifically so other poc and queer youth can have easy access to a path of musicianship readily available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morguewidow (talk • contribs) 20:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Looking at the sources which User:Adria_Stembridge posted above, I'm not convinced that any of them prove this band's notability. This one covers Ms. Stembridge herself, and the only thing it says about the band is that it is goth and post-punk. This one also covers Ms. Stembridge herself, and says absolutely nothing about the band. This one is an interview, and so doesn't count towards notability. This one is trivial coverage, and so doesn't count towards notability. This one is also trivial coverage. This one I can't access. And this one is also an interview. So there are two sources which suggest that Ms. Stembridge is notable independently of her band, but none suggesting that the band is notable independently of Ms. Stembridge. I would fully support anyone who wants to write an article about Ms. Stembridge as a person, but this article should be deleted. Mlb96 (talk) 21:20, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Trivial articles are specifically outlined as "articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories". Interviews are considered prominent press per notability qualifications. If users have issues with notability qualifications, I suggest they offer edits to that page and state their reasoning there instead of AfD discussion. ---  Adria_Stembridge  (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 16:33, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Both of the articles which I said were trivial are indeed trivial. One of them is merely a passing mention in a list of "best albums from Atlanta," and the other one is a report of a performance date. As for interviews, they are not considered independent of the subject, which is one of the requirements for a source to count towards notability. In fact, the page you keep linking to specifically states that "publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves" do not count towards notability. Mlb96 (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment It's interesting at the very least that two brand new accounts and an IP address suddenly popped up here to vote "retain", which is incidentally also a very peculiar, nonstandard term (we normally use keep) also used by Adria Stembridge... I hope it's clear that such a transparent attempt at gaming the system (whether sockpuppeting or meatpuppeting) will have no bearing on the outcome of this AfD, as that is determined based on the strenghts of arguments and not on vote numbers. I would also like to clarify that I obviously mean no harm to the queer/trans community by this nomination, but that queer/trans visiblity in itself is not a valid reason to keep an article that fails Wikipedia's notability standards (see also WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS). Lennart97 (talk) 23:12, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Being that many of us have actual day jobs we aren't as in tune with the correct verbiage to use. I entered the word Retain as it made sense. I have no control over what others enter, just as the verbiage Retain vs Keep has no substantial bearing on the discussion and is intended to question character of those posting in support of keeping this page in place. ---  Adria_Stembridge  (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 22:18, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

My name is Morgan Widow and I published the previous vote. This is not an attempt at gaming any system. That is inaccurate speculation. I am no writer and am only seeking to follow formatting as closely as possible. Other than Ms. Stembridge I personally, as a member of the band and seperate entity have contributed to said journalist releases in interviews about Athens, queer culture and the music scene this band has helped forefront. The argument that notability should be dismissed because Ms. Stembridge is only speaking on themselves or is the sole feature of said non trivial  articles is invalid because there are instances with proof that other people talk about seperate subjects unrelated to Ms. Stembridge. Below is an non trivial article featuring myself speaking on the cultural subjects above. This proves our right to notability based on arguments you presented and notability standards. https://www.onlineathens.com/story/entertainment/2021/09/30/athens-musician-adria-stembridge-active-voice-trans-visibility/8148846002/ I can also assist in providing acess to previously mentioned articles as they are evidence of notability and need to be considered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morguewidow (talk • contribs) 02:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have no emotional investment here and if the band's article is kept, I never have to look at it again. But all of the non-delete votes so far are from users who have done little or nothing in Wikipedia before this discussion, and at least one of them is in the band. Everybody has to start somewhere, and new editors are always welcome, but you have to realize that Wikipedia (as the name implies) is an encyclopedia in which people and things have to qualify for inclusion. It is not a media website to promote bands or to advocate for social causes, however noble they may be. Yes, Tears for the Dying is a band that stands for important issues and its members advocate on behalf of important issues. Those important issues might be "notable", but the band isn't. Sorry. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 13:52, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Providing access to the article won't be necessary because you admitted that you contributed to the article and that you are a member of the band. Anything which was written by or contributed to by any of the band's members is not independent of the subject, and so does not count towards notability. Mlb96 (talk) 17:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, there is no "right to notability" for yourselves just because you talked about an important issue. --- <b style="color:#66CDAA"> DOOMSDAYER 520</b> (TALK&#124;CONTRIBS) 18:07, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete — I’m Echoing, and the nom @, I too do not see NMUSIC met or WP:SIGCOV either. Celestina007 (talk) 19:33, 9 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.