Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tee-Comm Electronics


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sufficient reference found, consensus after relisting  DGG ( talk ) 18:18, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Tee-Comm Electronics

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing General notability guideline and the more detailed Notability (companies) requirement. I can't find anything other than passing mentions or business as usual primary documents/press releases. Through perhaps this could help, if anyone could get full version and check whether there's substantial third-party coverage? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:13, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 11:13, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. North America1000 16:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete - Can't think of any reasonable policy based argument to keep this. D4iNa4 (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Lourdes  22:58, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "Tee-Comm's track record for failing to meet optimistic financial projections seems to have scared several analysts away from the company. ... Current subscriber levels are a fair accomplishment, but far lower than the 130,000 subscribers the company had predicted, says a Bay Street analyst. But with Tee-Comm trading at ranges of between 95 and 120 times estimated 1994 earnings, clearly a lot of investors are behaving as if the company's success has already been achieved.  Earnings forecasts for 1995 range between no-growth at 8 cents, which Grossner predicts, and a sharp rise to 23 cents a share, forecast by Alvin Mirman of Gruntal & Co. Inc., a small Wall Street brokerage.  ...  Of course, predicting the future is a tough game. But one should always keep an eye on current performance. Says one Bay Street analyst: 'Sooner or later somebody is going to say, 'At $9, they have to earn 50 cents a share'.'"  The article notes: "Executives at Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. have been grinning like Cheshire cats since federal regulators ruled Tuesday to exempt direct-to-home (DTH) satelite television from detailed regulation - provided it is delivered via Canadian satelites. ... The ruling effectively shuts U.S. DTH leader Hughes DirecTv Inc. out of the Canadian market: Hughes uses U.S. 'deathstar' satellites to deliver its 150 channels of pay-per-view movie and sports programming. ...  Tee-Comm's stock (TEN/TSE) got a boost from the CRTC's ruling. Shares that closed at $2.85 Monday, the day before the ruling, closed yesteday at $3.45.  ...  Milton Ont.-based Tee-Comm is one of North America's largest manufacturers and distributors of home-satellite systems, the 'big dish' systems popular in rural neighborhoods where cable television service isn't offered.  Tee-Comm has 60% of the Canadian satellite-TV market and 25% of the big U.S. market."  The article notes: "Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. has had a very good year on the stock market, but a more disappointing one in the laboratory. The stock price of the Milton, Ont., electronics equipment manufacturer more than tripled during the year as investors rushed to get in on the direct-to-home satellite television service that Tee-Comm is helping to develop. But Tee-Comm missed several promised launch dates in the fall, as it worked to resolve problems with the new technology. Tee-Comm, which has been manufacturing satellite antennas and receiving dishes since 1983, is developing the receiving dish and set-top receiver box and some of the other associated technology necessary to create a DTH network." The article also interviews two analysts: "Analysts say buyers are almost entirely retail investors rather than institutions, largely because of the speculative nature of the technology involved. They say enthusiasm for the stock got out of control and the shares were due for a correction even before the company said last week its new launch date is expected toward the end of the first quarter of 1996. 'I expect the stock to sell off because they're losing credibility each time they miss a launch date,' said one analyst who commented on the condition he was not identified. 'The only way the current price can be justified is if you think they're going to do well in the United States,' said another analyst. 'I don't think they're going to pull it off. They still have to prove that their boxes work.' However, both analysts agreed the fact that Tee-Comm has missed some short-term deadlines is not a fundamental disaster as long as its technology pans out."  The article notes: "Over the past few months, Tee-Comm Electronics Inc.'s stock has been flying as high as the satellites it plans to use for its direct-to-home television service - as visions of the 'cable of the future' dance in investors' heads. Interest has been growing south of the border in particular, where players on the Nasdaq Stock Market are more accustomed to paying high multiples for relatively unproven technology stocks. ... Larry Woods - a professional investor who runs the Niagara Hedge Fund based in Stoney Creek, Ont. - says he is a long-time fan of Tee-Comm, although he doesn't currently hold any of the stock.  'It's a phenomenal Canadian success story,' he says. 'It's become one of the leading companies in North America when it comes to this technology. Now they have American broadcast capability, and they're one of the only companies I know with an MPEG-2 set-top box. They've got it all.'"</li> <li> The article notes: "Tee-Comm Electronics Inc., hurt by price wars in the U.S. satellite-television industry, said its bank put it into receivership and demanded repayment of the firm's credit line. Tee-Comm, an operator of satellite television services, also said its board resigned, including the company's founder, Al Bahnman. Mr. Bahnman remains president and chief executive officer. ... Tee-Comm's rivals were able to subsidize their products, because they had access to 'deep pockets' that Tee-Comm lacked, said Philip Benson, industry analyst at MMI Group Inc. in Toronto. DirecTV is owned by Hughes Electronics Corp., a division of General Motors Corp. PrimeStar is owned by a group of cable operators including Tele-Communications Inc. and Time Warner Inc. ... Tee-Comm has been looking for a strategic partner for the past couple of years without success because it entered the U.S. market behind its rivals, Mr. Benson said."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tee-Comm shares, which had a 52-week high of $16.10, have been hammered lately. They closed yesterday at 68 cents on the Toronto Stock Exchange, down 21 cents. Can Tee-Comm be saved? 'Let's put it this way, I shook my head last weekend when I saw my neighbor at the cottage with a new AlphaStar dish,' said Philip Benson, an industry analyst with MMI Group Inc."</li> <li> The article notes: "Yesterday, tiny Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. made it clear it has had it with phone giant BCE Inc. and other partners in grounded satellite company ExpressVu Inc. ExpressVu and BCE are not exactly enamored with Tee-Comm, either. Now Tee-Comm is going it alone - promising to be the 'first' to launch a Canadian direct-to-home satellite service called AlphaStar Canada."</li> <li> The article notes: "A second unit of satellite television company Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. has filed for bankruptcy court protection from its creditors. Tee-Comm Distribution Inc., 250 Cooper Ave., Town of Tonawanda, listed assets of $10 million and liabilities of approximately $105 million, according to papers filed in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware on Friday A week ago, another unit of Tee-Comm Electronics, AlphaStar Television Network Inc. of Stamford, Conn., filed for Chapter 11 protection. ... Tee-Comm Electronics, based in Montreal, has 50,000 subscribers in the United States and 6,000 in Canada."</li> <li></li> <li> The article notes: "Milton-based Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. has a message for a newly formed consortium of Canadian communications giants who have a plan to beam scores of TV channels to tiny home satellite dishes. Tee-Comm wants in -- but not at any cost, the company's management said yesterday. ... Tee-Comm, Canada's largest manufacturer of home satellite systems, is negotiating with the consortium."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. will not let the problem-plagued ExpressVu Inc. drag the company down, Tee-Comm's chairman says. Milton-based Tee-Comm was one of the original investors in the direct-to-home satellite company that just can't seem to get to market. Tee-Comm has passed on the last two cash calls at ExpressVu and equity has slipped from 33 per cent to 22 per cent. Tee-Comm will spend no more on ExpressVu but will focus on the U.S. satellite service called AlphaStar, of which Tee-Comm owns 97 per cent, chairman Al Bahnman told the annual meeting."</li> <li> The article notes: "Canada's only operational direct-to-home satellite TV company was hammered on the stock market yesterday, losing almost 60 per cent of its value. Once the darling of Bay Street, Tee-Comm Electronics Inc. fell to 85 cents yesterday, down $1.20 on extremely heavy trading of 3.4 million shares on the Toronto Stock Exchange. Tee-Comm, which owns AlphaStar Canada, had a 52-week high of $16.10. The company has long been looking for a white knight and yesterday it issued a news release that triggered a wave of selling."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tee-Comm has had problems, management and shareholders acknowledge. Its launch of AlphaStar was delayed over and over for about a year until it finally got going in the fall. Many observers, including the president of rival ExpressVu and some financial analysts, wonder if AlphaStar has the money to keep going much longer. Tee-Comm has reportedly been close many times to finding partners with deep pockets, but still no official announcement. AlphaStar's dish is not nearly as nifty as the popular DirecTV and EchoStar dishes from the United States. It is a lot smaller than those old eight-foot dishes out in the country or obtrusively atop urban sports bars."</li> <li> The article notes: "The sourest note in all this is that one of the pioneering companies in consumer satellite distribution was not able to survive. AlphaStar had the distinction of being the first Canadian service in operation, but its parent company - Tee-Comm Electronics - went broke just as the other services were launching. Tee-Comm had been a member of the original ExpressVu consortium, but had dropped out as its partners dithered, and set up its own service. It didn't have the financial depth of the giant phone and cable companies behind the other services, however, and it foundered."</li> <li> The article notes: "At this time, AlphaStar -- with about 58,000 subscribers -- is not a serious option. Its parent company is Tee-Comm Electronics. The Canadian company has its troubles, having filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy several months ago. It is proceeding through bankruptcy and the sale of its assets. Earlier this month, AlphaStar subscribers stopped receiving the service signal."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Tee-Comm Electronics to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 22:45, 16 September 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Delete As Cunard well knows, the test is *not* "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" which confuses more editors into thinking that the sources simply have to be unconnected with the company, but rather (as explained in detail in WP:ORGIND) must be both functionally and intellectually independent. Many of his deceptively selective quotations above omit the parts that show the reference fails intellectual independence. I randomly selected two references above (5 and 9) and both exclusively rely on connected sources. Most of the other references appear to be incidental and fail WP:CORPDEPTH. There are a very few occasions when Cunard references something that meets the criteria for establishing notability but Cunard has ignored calls for him in the past to 1) Stop posting his references in this manner 2) Read NCORP, especially ORGIND. Since he can't be bothered, I don't see why others should take his efforts seriously either. I'm of the opinion that none of the individual references meet the criteria for establishing notability, topic fails GNG and NCORP. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 13:02, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

<ul><li>Here are some more sources:<ol><li> The book notes: "1995: DirecTV protests to FCC Tee-Comm's application to provide a DTH service, AlphaStar, in the United States. ... 1996: Tee-Comm leaves ExpressVu Inc. and licenses AlphaStar in Canada. ...  1997: AlphaStar, Star Choice, ExpressVu initiate licensed service.  ...  1997: AlphaStar goes out of business.  ...  Like TRIO, Newsworld, and MuchMusic, Tee-Comm went continental and launched its AlphaStar service in the United States on July 1, 1996. Tee-Comm then applied for and received a license to launch its service in Canada.21 The CRTC allowed AlphaStar to deliver its Canadian services using American satellites until it could arrange to obtain space on Canadian satellites. By the end of May 1997, AlphaStar was out of business and Tee-Comm was in receivership. At the time of its bankruptcy, there were an estimated 7,000 subscribers in Canada and 60,000 in the United States.22   Footnotes   21. CRTC Decision 97–87, Ottawa, February 27, 1997. 22. Globe and Mail, August 7, 1997, B1, B6." The article notes: "The CRTC's treatment of satellite carriage in the DTH dispute generated a response in the American regulatory arena. Tee-Comm had contracted with AT&T for satellite services to deliver its AlphaStar service in the United States. DirecTV requested the American broadcasting regulator, the FCC, to deny AlphaStar the right to provide the DTH service. The request was based on two arguments. One was that delivering a DTH signal using a Canadian uplink was illegal. The second was couched in terms of 'fundamental fairness.' DirecTV maintained that allowing AlphaStar to operate in the United States if DirecTV could not provide a service in Canada was unfair. Tee-Comm and AT&T responded to both allegations. They claimed that all uplinking services could and would, if necessary, originate in the United States.32 With regard to the fairness issue, they told the FCC that 'procedures in Canada are changing and may permit the market entry that DirecTV is seeking.'33 When the Canadian directives to the CRTC established rules for licensing consistent with Power DirecTV's business plan, DirecTV withdrew its petition and the FCC dismissed it without prejudice. ... Footnotes   31. CRTC Decisions 93–235, and 93–236, Ottawa, June 25, 1993. 32. See 'DirecTV attempts to block AlphaStar U.S. DTH bid at FCC,' Satellite News. May 22, 1995."</li> <li> The book discusses "demand lending" and gives Tee-Comm as an example. The book notes: "Tee-Comm Electronics, Inc., a satellite television company in Milton, Ontario, fell into receivership when the Bank of Montreal called for immediate payment of a loan worth more than $34 million. After reaching a high on the Toronto Stock Exchange of $18.75, shares of Tee-Comm fell to $0.68 in May 1997 (Dalglish 1997). [Reference] Daglish, Brenda. 1997. Tee-Comm slides into receivership. Financial Post (Toronto), 23 May, 1."</li> <li> The article notes: "File this under the heading 'Investment Protection.' On May 23, 1997, at about 8 p.m., two men in suits showed up unannounced at Tee-Comm Electronics Inc.'s offices in Milton, Ont. Tee- Comm, a Canadian direct-to- home (DTH) digital satellite-TV company, had recently gone into receivership. Claiming to represent 'a significant Winnipeg investor,' the men told Tee-Comm president and CEO Al Bahnman that the investor was extremely upset about having lost his money and that he wanted it back. Believing the two men were simply naïve, Bahman laughed off their request and … …   In May, Bank of Montreal forced the former Bay Street darling—which one had a market capitalization of $500 million and attracted high-profile board members, including, briefly, Perrin Beatty—into receivership and its US subsidiary, AlphaStar Television Network Inc. into Chapter 11 (the US bankruptcy protection clause). That left many investors, especially Nesbitt Burns Inc., which had a sizable holding in Tee-Comm stock out of luck. ... Clive Hobson, Tee-Comm's former investor relations manager, says the company also received threatening calls from irate DTH dealers and customers and that Tee-Comm's Miami office was threatened a couple of times by investors from Puerto Rico."</li> </ol>Cunard (talk) 05:21, 18 September 2018 (UTC)</li></ul>

<ul><li>, what are your thoughts about the sources I provided above? Here is a summary of the information from the sources (sometimes closely paraphrased):<ol> <li>In 1994, Tee-Comm was Canada's largest manufacturer of home satellite systems.</li> <li>In 1994, Tee-Comm had 60% of the Canadian satellite-TV market and 25% of the big U.S. market.</li> <li>Tee-Comm was a publicly traded company on the Toronto Stock Exchange and at one point had a market capitalization of $500 million.</li> <li>Tee-Comm attracted high-profile board members including Perrin Beatty.</li> <li>When the company went bankrupt, BMO Nesbitt Burns held a significant portion of the shares.</li> <li>Harvard Business Professor Nitin Nohria included Tee-Comm as an example of "demand lending" in his 1998 book The Portable MBA Desk Reference.</li> <li>The analysts Alvin Mirman of Gruntal & Co. Inc. and Philip Benson of MMI Group Inc. followed the company in the 1990s. There likely are numerous other analysts who have followed the company and written analyst reports about it because sources like Financial Post say, "Tee-Comm's track record for failing to meet optimistic financial projections seems to have scared several analysts away from the company." Per Notability (organizations and companies), analyst reports can be used to establish notability. It is difficult to obtain such analyst reports today because Tee-Comm went bankrupt 21 years ago.</li> <li>A 1995 Financial Post article interviews two analysts about Tee-Comm. One analyst says, "I expect the stock to sell off because they're losing credibility each time they miss a launch date". The second analyst says, "The only way the current price can be justified is if you think they're going to do well in the United States. I don't think they're going to pull it off. They still have to prove that their boxes work."</li> <li>The Toronto Star interviewed Philip Benson, an industry analyst at MMI Group Inc. about whether Tee-Comm could be saved from bankruptcy. Benson said, "Let's put it this way, I shook my head last weekend when I saw my neighbor at the cottage with a new AlphaStar dish." </ol> I think there is enough information here to demonstrate the company's significance. I think the sources have provided enough independent analysis of the company (from the analysts' critical comments, for example). What do you think? Cunard (talk) 05:21, 18 September 2018 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Withdrawing nom. This time you found excellent sources indeed. #2 by itself would be sufficient. Thanks! --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:54, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Since there are delete !votes, this AFD can't be closed on that basis alone. Patar knight - chat/contributions 13:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep per the excellent sources by Cunard, who found numerous, significant pieces in major Canadian newspapers with national distribution. Patar knight - chat/contributions 13:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment, , perhaps you or someone else could point me to any reference that meets the criteria for Intellectual Independence, specifically Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. The best example I can find is the book "Much Ado about Culture: North American Trade Disputes" mentioned above but oddly enough, I cannot find the parts quoted - but even so there's enough in the book to meet the criteria for establishing notability. A minimum of two references are required. If you guys have found another, let me know and I'll change my current Delete !vote and the nom can be withdrawn. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 14:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep I dispute the proposed deletion because this is a company that is the heritage of the first direct digital to home satellite TV service. KJRehberg (talk) 18:17, 18 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.