Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terem (Russia)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:03, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Terem (Russia)

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This article is about social institute in Muscovite Russia. The problem is that such social institute wasn't exist in Russia, or, at least, it doesn't have name "terem". As you can see in interwiki articles on Slavic languages, ru:Терем, uk:Терем, pl:Terem and even fr:Terem (architecture), терем is just an upper floor of old Russian buildings. As a Russian, I can confirm this. Women could live in this upper floor, and they could be limited in communicating with strangers, but this social practice definitely not called "terem". Since this enwiki article created by an one-page account and no one source in references mentions a word "terem" in title, could this article be some sort of hoax? It can describe existing practice, but under name that definitely not connected to it. MBH (talk) 05:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC) Отрада Старинная таборная песня в обр. М. Шишкина
 * This is a hoax based on a gipsy song:

46.188.23.100 (talk) 07:06, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Живет моя отрада
 * В высоком терему,
 * А в терем тот высокий
 * Нет ходу никому.
 * Я знаю, у красотки
 * Есть сторож у крыльца,
 * Но он не загородит
 * Дороги молодца.
 * Дороги молодца.
 * Comment - I am not familiar with this "word" but I dont think it is a hoax. I found explanation about Terem from www.encyclopedia.com. Btw, the article was well written but it needs some room of improvement. Let see what others have to say about this. I have not decided whether to vote for keep or delete yet - Jay (talk) 17:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - It's clearly not a hoax. It appears explicitly referenced in the works used as sources. Richard Pipes, Ronald Hingley and Charles Halperin for example are reliable, even distinguished, scholars on this period.
 * Pipes - "As a rule, Muscovite ladies of quality were confined to a seperate quarter, called terem (from the Greek teremon)."
 * Hingley - "The Tsar's womenfolk lived in seclusion in their quarters (the terem), another feature of old Muscovy to impress foreign visitors as oriental."
 * Halperin - "The first of these is the terem, which epitomized the degredation of women in the Muscovite state. The terem was a tower or isolated quarter of a palace where the women were kept in seclusion."
 * A quick look in Russian sources easily shows this concept in a number of sources, including the works of Vladimir Dal, and Brockhaus and Efron (search - ЭСБЕ/Терем). The ip has listed several of the other wiki sites that don't make reference to the women concept (these articles are also very short), but has selectively omitted those that do, such as the Swedish and Norwegian. As written, the article is a scholarly and well sourced account of the social institution of women in Muscovite Russia so far as it applies to the separation of the upper caste women. So much for the hoax theory. What I suspect the original commentator was trying to say is that the term Terem does not or should not apply to this institution of separation. Here the findings of Kollman in 'The Seclusion of Elite Muscovite Women' are apparently that "nineteenth-century historians popularized the word “terem,” which became synonymous with the general practice of elite female seclusion". This may be now an outmoded view but it is discussed in detail in the article, and as Pipes, Hingley, Kollman and Halperin show, the term at least is in use by contemporary historians.
 * In conclusion:
 * The absence of a similar information on other wikipedias, even the Russian one, is not proof, or even an indication that the information here is in error, or is a hoax.
 * The term Terem is well attested to in English and Russian language sources which explicitly support the concept as described here.
 * The term Terem is definitely connected to the practice of separating women.
 * At the very most the term Terem may be too generally applied as a shorthand for a complex institution that went beyond placing women in separate chambers or structures. If so, this should be addressed with a move discussion to something along the lines of Elite women in Muscovite Russia. Spokoyni (talk) 08:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 19:06, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep. The name may mean "upper floor" but the social institution is real, and notable, and I think there's enough evidence that this is the usual single word for it. It's covered at least somewhat in every book about Russia in the period, in addition to the substantial coverage given in the article and above.   DGG ( talk ) 10:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep -- I read this article as about a social system (possibly an institution, certainly not an institute), similar to a Turkish harem. There may be scope for argument over context and detail, but it does not look like hoax to me.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:38, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.