Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Terezín: The Music 1941-44


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus/keep. Jayjg (talk) 01:09, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Terezín: The Music 1941-44

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I had initially included this article with the Alexander Goldscheider discussion, but it has come to light that the articles should be tried separately, as there are other things complicating the Alexander Goldscheider discussion, that wouldn't apply to Terezin: The Music 1941-44. However, see the Alexander Goldscheider as well for a greater scope of the issue. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 17:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC) 
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions.  &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 17:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Czech Republic-related deletion discussions.  &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 17:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The following discussion is copied from Articles for deletion/Alexander Goldscheider, when the two articles were nominated together.

If anybody googles Terezín: The Music 1941-44 there are dozens and dozens of references to this double CD, be it from BBC programs, Simon Wiesenthal Center, conferences, libraries, schools, universities, etc. from around the world. There are many further references under "Theresienstadt: Die Musik 1941-44" and "Terezín: La Musique 1941-44" as this set is known in Germany and France respectively.

Similarly, if you google "Brundibár Romantic Robot" there are 2,090 hits with pages and pages of references, and if you Google just "Brundibár", there are 90,500 hits! - hardly anybody at all knew about this children's opera before it was discovered on the above Terezín: The Music 1941-44 CDs. All the artists on the CDs have their Wikipedia articles in several languages, so does the opera Brundibár and again virtually nobody knew Gideon Klein, Pavel Haas, Hans Krása or Viktor Ullmann before these CDs existed. To say that this is not a "notable release with no significant coverage by any other source" is simply incorrect, if not unfair as well. There were over 15,000 of this 2-CD set (i.e. over 30,000 CDs) sold over the years, a significant amount for modern classical music, let alone with the connotations of concentration camps! This set was also supplied to very many libraries around the world and it is still in demand nearly 20 years after its release. AGRR (talk) 03:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Note The production of art at Terizín, music, theater, etc, is a highly notable subject; I recently say an exhibition on it. I have no idea if this particular CD is notable, but the topic certainly is.  A rename to Music production in Terezín and some c/e could be the ultimate solution, depending on availablity of sources for the CD, to preserve info. Power.corrupts (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Regretful delete: Terezín: The Music 1941-44 AGRR, the notability is not based on the number of Google hits. Each article should contain facts verified from multiple, reliable, independent and substantial sources. I would like to help you, but I can't find anything. I recall an old review in Czech magazine Harmonie or Hudební rozhledy, however, I'm not sure if mentioned review described your product. It was a large anthology of compositions by musicians imprisoned in Terezín. I'm also a bit surprised by your statement that virtually nobody knew children's opera Brundibár and "Terezín composers" before your publishing efforts. I can assure you that all mentioned composers are included in major encyclopedic works on Czechoslovak music, such as Československý hudební slovník (published in 1963). I can also recommend you works by Lubomír Peduzzi, who spent a major part of his career researching lives and works of Jewish composers persecuted by Nazis, or more recent research and publications by Milan Kuna. I admire and support your work and I believe it is important contribution to the music history, but I can't support your articles here without reliable and independent sources. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * @Power.corrupts: Music production in Terezín (or perhaps Culture in Terezín) surely deserves an article here, however, the subject of this AfD is this particular CD: Terezín: The Music 1941-44. --Vejvančický (talk) 15:25, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I am familiar with all the literature on the subject and I can assure you that virtually nobody knew Gideon Klein, Hans Krása, Pavel Haas outside of Czech Republic until my Terezín 2-CD set. What a pity that Eliška Kleinová, the sister of Gideon Klein, is no longer with us as she could confirm this better than anybody else: she devoted her entire life to promote the music of her brother and others from Terezín, who all perished, and she herself could not believe when I did produce the CDs and she could hold them in her hands. I am not over dramatising this and a lot of my knowledge and experience is first hand, as my father and uncle took part in the cultural life in Terezín (my father appears on a couple of Terezín posters), where they were imprisoned before being sent to Auschwitz, Schwarzheide, with the rest of the family perishing in Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen. It is also no surprise for me that you may not find much material about Terezín everywhere (be it my CDs or anything else for that matter), as the topic is still, how shall I phrase it, unpleasant to deal with for many! Two Terezín composers may very well have been mentioned in the essential Československý hudební slovník in 1963 - neither Hans Krása, nor Pavel Ullmann are there at all!! -, but nobody heard their music until 20+ years later! And there were no mentions of them anywhere else in the world, whilst hardly anybody can read Czech. I had enormous difficulties promoting the music myself, but promoting I did and there followed a whole string of products/material by many others on the same topic and, as I said, for instance Brundibár (not ever mentioned in the Československý hudební slovník) is nowadays known all over the world. Of course I realize that Google hits are not a measurement of notability, but frankly I feel an immense joy that there are now over 90,000 hits on Google re Brundibár, and I do take a certain amount of pride that my 2CDs played their part in that achievement. And I am absolutely delighted there are now thousands of people involved. I fully appreciate the efforts and achievements of others. I know Mr. Kuna, whom you mention, personally, he in fact helped me with the information on my double-CD and I credit him right after my thanks to Eliška Kleinová in the booklet accompanying the CDs (avaiable on the Romantic Robot website www.romantic-robot.com). Incidentally, Mr. Kuna's book great and laudable book "Musik an der Grenze des Lebens" was first published by the German publisher Zweitausendeins in October 1993 - after the very same publisher and mail-order company already sold thousands of my "Theresienstadt: Die Musik 1941-44" set since its release in 1991. I do not make any claims whatsoever that I am the only person engaged in this topic, not in the slightest, but my 2CD set was a major breakthrough for the Terezín composers and Eliška Kleinová said that it achieved more than she she was able to do in 45 years. She also summarised the role of music in Terezín in the simplest words as "Music? Music was life!" And it was life, survival, for many, for thousands, tens of thousands - the role of music in many other camps has now been documented as well. And please take a look at the entire article on the 2CD set, the deletion of which we are discussing here. This is ALL it says: "Terezín: The Music 1941-44 is a 2-CD set with music written by the inmates at the Terezín concentration camp during World War II. Vol. 1 contains chamber music by Gideon Klein, Viktor Ullmann and Hans Krása, Vol. 2 features the children opera Brundibár by Hans Krása and songs by Viktor Ullmann and Pavel Haas. The CDs were produced by Alexander Goldscheider and released by Romantic Robot in 1991." Frankly, if these two sentences of pure and most basic factual information are deemed not to be worth their place in Wikipedia, then I rest my case. Already the fact that we are discussing it here shows how difficult it still is to promote the music linked to concentration camps! I am sorry to hear there is no info on "Terezin: the music" at Syracuse University, and it can hardly help when we are discussing here a deletion of a few lines that could help!. - 	'''I rather fully agree with Power.corrupts that there should be a full article on the music in Terezín. Perhaps my 28-page booklet in English, German and Czech may very well serve its purpose here. It can be downloaded at www.romantic-robot.com, where it is also possible to find out more about the 2CD set and contact me through my e-mail there for anything not worth including here. Thank you'''.AGRR (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Unfortunately, I can come up with nothing substantial from searching the library databases for "terezin: the music" at Syracuse University, where I am currently going to school. The only thing I could find was a passing mention in this article. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 20:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. This article from The Independent looks to be significant news coverage (at least in this article).  We can only see part of it here, but enough to know so.  Perhaps someone w/access can see it all.  There is also mention in this Seattle Post-Intelligencer article, but without seeing the entire article I can't asses how significant the reference is (again, perhaps someone else has access and can).  And this from the German Poetry blog is a very good treatment as to why such music is uniquely notable, buttressed by this and this.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment.This is mainly a reprint of my comments made in the discussion of Alexander Goldscheider article. I highlighted an addition at the end.


 * Comment Thanks for your helpful comment, Mr. Goldscheider. It is quite possible that mentioned composers were unknown outside of Czech Republic, perhaps I'm trapped in a small Czech context, but this is not the point here. In my opinion, the best solution would be an article about music (or cultural activities generally) in Theresienstadt concentration camp. The topic is notable enough and this should be expanded separately. I own several books related to our subject and I can find out more. Would you mind to help me with that article (particularly with my imperfect English grammar)? --Vejvančický (talk) 15:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Rename and refocus as Music of Theresienstadt concentration camp. I presume this is the German name for Terezín.  The camp was certainly notable, as a sort of cultural ghetto created by the Nazis to fool international observers.  This makes its cultural life and thus its music notable.  I suspect that the person from Syracuse could find nothing becasue he searched using the Czech placename, not the German one.  I presume my identifiaction is correct as Terezín concentration camp redirects to Theresienstadt concentration camp, which is the name by which its existnece has been most publicised in UK.  Peterkingiron (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I was specifically looking for sources verifying the notability of this particular album, released with the spelling "Terezin". &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 15:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Understandable. Would you be supportive of keeping this in some form (as-is, a redirect/merge to an existing or new article that is broader, etc?  And if yes, which approach do you think would be best?  I myself think the information is important to keep in some form, though I haven't determined which form, and would appreciate your and others input.--Epeefleche (talk) 10:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know enough about the subject myself, which is why I'm glad that this AfD discussion has brought the article to the attention of some more knowledgeable editors. I guess it is evident that a Music of Theresienstadt concentration camp is needed, though I wouldn't know whether Terezin: The Music should exist in addition to that (future) article, or be merged into it. &mdash;Akrabbimtalk 18:43, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Terezín is the correct historical name and the current geographical name. Theresienstadt is the German place name, and I see no reason to keep the German name in an English language international encyclopedia. Power.corrupts (talk) 23:34, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is the English WP, and the town is Terezin (to which Theresienstadt redirects), but it was the Germans who ran the concentration camp and I have heard it regualrly referred to in English by its German name. I consider we need an article about the music composed and played in Theresienstadt concentration camp (as the WP article calls it), not merely about a recently produced disc of such music.  I see no objection to the present title reamining as a redirect; indeed that would be the normal consequence of renaming.  Peterkingiron (talk) 00:16, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Based on the work of Epeefleche, I also found a reference in a US Teacher's guide, the geographical spread of the Google results and a Gbooks result "Daybook of critical reading and writing‎ Mary Frances Claggett, Louann Reid, Ruth Vinz - Literature - 1999 - 224 pages", I would say this clearly deserves mention in an encyclopdia, per WP:PRESERVE. The question is then if it should have its own article, or be merged somewhere else with a redirect.  We dont even need an AfD for that.  I think that the WP:N tail has begun to wag the Wikipedia dog.  I would say keep to cut the discussion short, based on relevance, likely N pass, and although I know they are poor respectively weak (but valid) arguments, WP:NOHARM and WP:NOTPAPER. Power.corrupts (talk) 16:27, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also say to Vejvančický: "'the subject of this AfD is this particular CD: Terezín: The Music 1941-44.. No, the subject is whether the info meets WP:V, WP:NOR etc. and if so, whether it merits a stand-alone article or should be merged into another article. Power.corrupts (talk) 16:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Given that the CD represents the work of a number of composers, it's rather hard to do what we'd usually do, which is merge it.  I think it's clear that it meets WP:V--and it is expandable--we should for example have a track listing. There are many possible sources for reviews, not all of them online or well indexed, so it should be possible to expand the references also. Some other possible articles have been suggested above, and they should be written also. Wikipedia is NOT PRINT, which means there is NO DEADLINE--the material can always be rearranged later.    DGG ( talk ) 01:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added a track listing and infobox.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:28, 24 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. Per nom's thoughtful softening of his position, and per Power and DGG.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.