Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/That's Shanghai


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 12:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

That's Shanghai

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Fails WP:CORP and WP:GNG, specifically WP:SIGCOV. The two references that had been in the article were both dead links. Only active reference is the link to the company's own website. Geoff &#124; Who, me? 15:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions.  MT Train Talk 17:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions.  MT Train Talk 17:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.      <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The article notes: "《城市漫步》上海版英文月刊（that’s Shanghai）是由国务院新闻办公室主管，五洲传播出版社主办并出版发行的期刊. 她创刊于2004年，以上海这座国际大都市中的英语阅读群体为读者，内容涵盖艺术文化、流行时尚、旅游、餐饮、技术、商务等众多领域，同时包含了国内外社会名流的专访. 其特色栏目如The Buzz， Life ＆ style, Eat & drink等以其客观的视角、深度的分析、丰富的资讯和独特的文化，为上海讲英语的外籍人士和当地爱好者提供了信息及娱乐，从而丰富了他们的生活，在城市资讯类外文期刊中形成了较好的品牌效应，处于行业领先地位. 堪称外籍人士沪上生活的实用指南和最佳顾问." From Google Translate: "'City Walk' Shanghai Edition English Monthly (that's Shanghai) is a periodical sponsored by the Press Office of the State Council and sponsored by Wuzhou Communication Press. Founded in 2004, she uses the English reading community in Shanghai, an international metropolis, as a reader. The content covers many fields such as arts and culture, fashion, tourism, catering, technology, business and so on. It also includes exclusive interviews with celebrities at home and abroad. Its characteristic columns such as The Buzz, Life & Style, Eat & Drink, etc. provide information and entertainment for English-speaking foreigners and local lovers in Shanghai with their objective perspective, in-depth analysis, rich information and unique culture As a result, they have enriched their lives, formed a better brand effect in the urban information foreign language journals, and are in a leading position in the industry. It can be called a practical guide and best consultant for foreigners living in Shanghai."</li> <li> The article notes: "The 35-year-old Kitto was not intending a career in the publishing business when he settled in Shanghai four years ago. However, he quickly realized the need for a publication like 'That's Shanghai'. His enormous success has proven him right. Today the magazine, run by a team of 30 staffers, boasts a circulation of 35,000 with a readership composed of 60 per cent Chinese and 40 per cent foreigners. 'That's Shanghai' enjoys a high level of public recognition, receiving positive feedback from readers as far away as Germany. In addition, Kitto's operation has gained praise from some of the highest departments in the Chinese Government. Officials see the publication as an asset in Shanghai's bid for World Expo 2010. Kitto said he was personally informed by a senior official that his publication was important in promoting Shanghai to the outside world, as well as developing the city's local media."</li> <li> The book notes: "Kathleen [Lau] soon became busy with other ventures, including cofounding Shanghai's first English-language magazine, That's Shanghai, with Mark Kitto, a story picked up in Chapter 4." The book notes: "I observed with great interest when in 1999, recently arrived expatriates Mark Kitto, from the UK, and Kathleen Lau, from California, began publishing That's Shanghai, a monthly, English-language guide with listings of the city's restaurants, bars, and everything else. ... Kitto writes that the mayor of Shanghai took a collection of That's Shanghai issues to Paris in 2002 when he presented his successful bid for the 2010 World Expo (Kitto 2006; 2005 interview). The impact of That's Shanghai was extraordinary and not only for the expatriate market. The magazine introduced nightlife listings and restaurant reviews at a time when independent restaurants, bars, and clubs were beginning to spread throughout the city. Imitators sprang up, and by the mid-2000s, there were at least five locally published listing magazines in English aimed at this market, including market leaders City Weekend, Shanghai Talk, and the Shanghai edition of Time Out. ... Awards from That's Shanghai, City Weekend, and other English magazines became the most important legitimating symbols for restaurants in Shanghai before the arrival of Michelin in 2017. More than anything, however, these magazines were the media through which the expatriate community shared stories and established a collective identity." The book notes: "However, as Kitto discovered, grey-zone media practices tolerated for Chinese businesses were off-limits to foreigners. In 2004, the state-owned company that owned his publishing licenses took over the company, locking him out of his offices (Kitto 2006). The case of That's Shanghai made clear that foreigners could not challenge the state's authority over media organizations in China. ... One of That's Shanghai's longest serving editors, Australian JFK Miller published a book outlining what he called ... For example, while some Shanghai expatriate magazines features sections devoted to LGBT interests, for many years That's Shanghai was prohibited from explicitly promoting LGBT venues."</li> <li> The book notes: "That's Shanghai Kitto's magazine, the equivalent of Time Out, tottered into existence by skirting the rules in 1998, but then was officially banned by the Shanghai News Bureau after just one issue. Nothing in China is quite as it seems. The Bureau had another magazine, the Pictorial, which was doing badly. They wanted to combine the two, under their ownership with Kitto's team doing the work. ... To maintain the fiction, Kitt was no longer 'editor' but now 'Planning manager' and his team was similarly, on paper, re-assigned. His magazine's name, Ish, was proscribed but, as they needed to get away from the bad reputation of the Bureau's magazine, a new name, that's Shanghai, was put at the top of the front page, with Shanghai Pictorial at the bottom. ... There would be no kanhao for them in Shanghai; but as that door shut, another opened. Kitto ran that's Shanghai and its sister papers in Beijing and Guangzhou for, in total, seven years. Commercially they were very successful but they had to keep dodging the bullets from branches of party and government, each of which had their own competitive interests. Their agendas were well hidden; Macchiavelli would have been proud of them."</li> <li> The article notes: "Demand for the that's publications is enormous, so that's Shanghai started selling copies of the magazines at Lawson convenience stores and CarreFour. The company will sell the magazine at newsstands in the future. That's Beijing will not be sold, however. That's Shanghai's circulation is currently 50,000 and is audited by Hong Kong Audit Bureau of Circulations."</li> <li> The article notes: "A former Welsh Guardsman, metals trader and would-be magazine publisher who fell foul of China's stringent media controls may finally receive compensation for titles lost to a government publishing house. The dispute dates back to the late 1990s when Mark Kitto, 40, joined a small English-language magazine in the southern city of Guangzhou. The success of that venture prompted him and his Chinese business partner to try their luck in the bigger, glitzier metropolis of Shanghai. He was taking a risk in a country where foreigners are not allowed to run publishing companies, but the titles -That's Beijing, That's Shanghai and That's Guangzhou -all thrived. The first, That's Shanghai, made money from the third edition, with its mix of feature stories on life in China, listings and advertisements for restaurants, bars and clubs. By the time he lost the business in 2004, it was turning over about Pounds 2.5 million a year."</li> <li> The article notes: "First, pick up That's Shanghai - a free magazine that you can get in most hotels and westernised restaurants. Do this, you'll know more about the city than anybody who lives there. It lists about everything that's going on. There's a restaurant guide - 10 pages worth with descriptions, opinions, prices etc. Compiled by an American called Mark Kitto, the magazine is a monthly and is read by every single expat living in Shanghai, and a fair number of locals as well. ... If you get a copy of That's Shanghai, you'll see new stuff opening up every month. It's not because things are closing down and being replaced - it's because more and more stuff is coming."</li> <li> The article notes: "Mr Kitto's magazines, such as That's Shanghai, developed cachet with locals as well as attracting advertising from the booming property and restaurant industries. But publishing the magazines was only one part of Mr Kitto's job. Much of his time was spent on politics - that is, trying to secure partnerships with the all-important holders of publishing numbers that would keep his magazines open. The most difficult market was Shanghai, which operates tough media controls. Yet it was also the most profitable because of the city's wealth and international population. In one raid, local officials confiscated the magazine's computers. In another, they sat down at the magazine's offices, put their feet up on the desks and demanded that they be brought buckets of Kentucky Fried Chicken for lunch. From June 1999, That's Shanghai survived by using a licence number from the Yangzhou government in return for running a page each month about the attractions of the nearby city. Mr Kitto kept control of the business by entering into an 'exclusive consultancy arrangement' with Yangzhou, as well as with an advertising agency that was owned by the magazine's Chinese financial controller."</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow That's Shanghai to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 04:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * The Shanghai Star noted, "That's Shanghai enjoys a high level of public recognition, receiving positive feedback from readers as far away as Germany." A 2019 Routledge book called That's Shanghai "Shanghai's first English-language magazine". It also noted, "The impact of That's Shanghai was extraordinary and not only for the expatriate market. The magazine introduced nightlife listings and restaurant reviews at a time when independent restaurants, bars, and clubs were beginning to spread throughout the city." It further noted, "Awards from That's Shanghai, City Weekend, and other English magazines became the most important legitimating symbols for restaurants in Shanghai before the arrival of Michelin in 2017." New Strait Times called That's Shanghai "a free magazine that you can get in most hotels and westernised restaurants". Financial Times noted that That's Shanghai "developed cachet with locals as well as attracting advertising from the booming property and restaurant industries". Cunard (talk) 04:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 14:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note to closer for soft deletion: This nomination has had limited participation and falls within the standards set for lack of quorum. There are no previous AfD discussions, undeletions, or current redirects and no previous PRODs have been located. This nomination may be eligible for soft deletion at the end of its 7-day listing. --Cewbot (talk) 00:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
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<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 07:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.