Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/That Which That Orphan Saw


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The article's subject is found to be notable, per it winning multiple awards as listed in the below discussion. I would, at this time, also remind Mehran that we are a worldwide encyclopedia; which means that a major literary award is not made invalid for use as a source of notability, just because it is not known by those in the English speaking parts of the world. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 01:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

That Which That Orphan Saw

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There is no independent and reliable source in the articles, no sign of notability. More like an advertisement for the book than an encyclopediac article. ● Mehran Debate● 07:28, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Lakun.patra (talk) 09:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete- The article is not notable and lacks reliable sources. Should be deleted without hesitation. Mbcap (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment The nominator has opened 4 AfDs. They are all article created by User:Mhhossein. The nom has voiced intention to open more AfDs for articles created by Mhhossein - they will be added to this list if so.
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/One Woman's War: Da (Mother)
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A City Under Siege: Tales of the Iran-Iraq War
 * Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/That Which That Orphan Saw
 * Articles for deletion/Hadith of Jesus Praying Behind Mahdi
 * -- Green C  04:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Ladsgroupoverleg 11:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - The article is new and there is active editing on the page. Notability does not have to be established in the first few days. HullIntegrity  \ talk / 12:56, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Related ANI discussion that involves this AfD. -- Green  C  15:34, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:GNG and WP:BKCRIT #1. According to the publisher (?) "Mohammad Reza Sarshar is the author of more than 130 books for children, as well as literary and scholarly works and translations. He has received 31 national and state awards." and That Which That Orphan Saw "..has received numerous awards that have distinguished it." It's very difficult to search Persian-language sources so even the smallest evidence of notability is sometimes enough. However evidence of prizes can be found in this source which says "also won several prizes won during the short time that can be chosen, including.." (lists a couple). The book has been discussed or reviewed in Farsi sources such as at the Tehran Quaran Academy (Source: Iran News Network), a book review (Source: farsnews.com), book review (Source: Iran Book News Agency), book review (Source: Office of Public Library of Qom). Although these are Farsi sources, notability is not restricted to English-language sources and should be given equal weight to English sources. Per WP:BKCRIT #1 a book is notable if it receives multiple reviews, but even failing that it clearly has received considerable attention in Iran since it's seen as controversial (portraying Muhammad fictionally) and would pass WP:GNG. -- Green  C  17:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The publisher is not a dependent source, I searched before and found no award for this book, that was just a lie and ads for the book. This source is the writer's website and is not dependent either. This source has been written by the writer and would not be dependent. Tasnim News is not a reliable source and also the content is just a promotion for the book in Amazon. ● Mehran Debate● 18:23, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Tasnim News is used on en.Wikipedia and fa.Wikipedia. In these 4 AfDs you discount every source as 'unreliable' but that's not really the case. Sarshar.org is the author's website but it's a copy of an article from the Iran News Network, which is typical for authors to archive articles about themselves. You say the awards are a "lie", but I've linked to an article that supports it won awards. You say Far News is "written by the author" but that's not how it reads at all, the translation says "He said.." and says at the top "book review". -- Green  C  19:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Many unreliable sources (even Facebook) have been used in Wikipedia, that could not be a reason. I think it is so clear that the writer's quotes is not an independent source and includes CoI. The FarsNews page is a report told by the own writer, you can ask a native Persian user to confirm that. It seems there are some users participating here and in the other AfDs to !vote. Repeated illogical !votes in the four AfDs sound like a tag teaming to me. There is no sheriff in this city and I would not waste my time anymore so. This is not a fair AfD and you can do whatever you want, I am done here. Good luck. ● Mehran Debate● 04:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep No more an advertisement than any book article; it discusses the plot, and the reception. That's what such articles are supposed to do. The awards prove the notability, as usual.  DGG ( talk ) 22:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no official award for this book. ● Mehran Debate● 04:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep per DGG's logic above. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
 * @Ism schism: DGG's logic is the awards for the book, while there is no official award. Could you please explain more? ● Mehran Debate● 13:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete, doesnt meet WP:NBOOK, three of the references cited in the article are not independent of the book, they are a publisher site, the persian wikipedia page which would more be more appropriate in a 'see also' entry, and the authors site. The Khamenei ref  is okay giving the reader an insight into why the author wrote the book.  a google search brings up nothing, worldcat and trove shows no libraries as holding it (maybe too early?).  Coolabahapple (talk) 12:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Page creator- Awards: established the "Selected work" in the Quranic stories festival. In this festival, books published in 10 years were compared and "That Which That Orphan Saw" won the prize. This book also won "Book of the year award", an important official award. You can read a review Published by ketabestan, a specialized book related website where it is mentioned that almost 13000 copies of the book are sold. Mhhossein (talk) 08:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * According to WP:BKCRIT, the book needs to win a major award in order to be notable. Quranic stories festival is not even an award. This link you gave is an unknown award, and the page is probably not about the mentioned book since it had been a translated book from a Lebanese version and Batool Meshkinfam (بتول مشکین‌فام) has won this [unknown] awards in translation category, while Sarshar is the writer. Ketabestan is a mirror site, it had copied its contents from the publisher's and some other websites, besides the copyright violation, it has just quoted the writer's own criticism. ● Mehran Debate● 10:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought that Mehran could read farsi very well. Here it is mentioned "That Which That Orphan Saw" was selected among the books published within 10 years (from 1995 up to 2005) in Iran and it established the title of "The selected work". Is it an establishment for a book or not? By the way, "Book of the year" is not unknown award (you seem unfamiliar with literary subjects). Moreover, The link says: "کتاب «جاده جنگ» اثر منصور انوری در بخش رمان و کتاب «آنک آن یتیم نظر کرده» اثر بتول مشکین‌فام در بخش ترجمه دو اثر برگزیده انتشارات سوره مهر در جایزه کتاب سال بودند," which demonstrates that "بتول مشکین فام" has translated the book into English and it won the prize. The second half of the materials of that link is a review by the site and I would like to know how a writer may criticize his own book? by the way you can search the Persian title to understand how notable the book is in Iran although the award itself adds weight. Mhhossein (talk) 12:34, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * As I told before, even we assume the award is not unknown, the book itself has not won a major award, the translated version has won a minor award which is not related to the book by Sarshar. I did not understand your question, the source has made it clear that the content has been written by the write: "محمدرضا سرشار (نویسنده كتاب)- فكر نوشتن از سرزمین نور از سال 1359 در ذهن من افتاد..." and you did not pay attention to rest of word, the website is a mirror of the publication's and has not published a thing itself. ● Mehran Debate● 13:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Book of the year is certainly known and major! Bty, How can you differentiate between the different versions of the book, so should we make a page for every versions of a book? Moreover, from "كتابي را كه امروز قرار است راجع به آن صحبت كنيم، «‌آنك آن يتيم نظر كرده" up to the end is the review by ketabetsan. As you see some parts are challenged and the week points are mentioned and criticized. for example it says:"نكتة ديگري كه به نظر من نقطة قوت نيست اين است كه پرداختن به فرازهاي زندگي پيامبر در كتاب، به شكل همسان انجام نشده است." please consider that the book also meets general notability guideline, too. Mhhossein (talk) 18:20, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No matter it has an article in fawiki or not, currently this award is unknown and non-existent here in English Wikipedia. Whenever it wants to be known and major, there have to be a link to the official website of the award, not a news report of a session with the translator of the book, which makes this source dependent again. I showed the proofs that Ketabestan review is nothing but a copyright violation and am not willing to repeat it again. And the article would not satisfy WP:GNG since the reviews and the sources are dependent or mirror of the publication's website. ● Mehran Debate● 13:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.