Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. And protect from recreation.  Sandstein  06:44, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric

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Article has been tagged for CSD and deleted multiple times, and CSDs are now being immediately deleted by anon IP. Article consists solely of peacock wording based on blogs and primary sources. No notability shown. Dori ☾Talk ⁘ Contribs☽ 04:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Meandering personal and corporate promotion. Salt it too. EEng (talk) 04:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete and SALT. It'll just keep getting added. I did a search and the only source that seems to be halfway usable are a few blogs written by a Huff Post editor in various forums. Since it looks like she's the only person reporting on this company (and some of the posts read like press releases), that's not enough to show notability.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Not a historically important fabric company - only 5 years old and not widely covered in reliable sources. No indication of notability. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:59, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete Doesn't appear to be notable, few if any independent reliable sources. CodeTheorist (talk) 12:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete and SALT per Tokyogirl79. - Presidentman talk · contribs Random Picture of the Day (Talkback) 13:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:00, 11 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note to closer The article has been copy and pasted to User:Lwilkins93/sandbox without attribution. Please consider dealing with that once the decision here is made. Monty  845  00:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I've given some advice to the (original) author about this, at the Teahouse. Sionk (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue has been resolved. (Lwilkins93 (talk) 13:13, 15 July 2012 (UTC))


 * Note to closer This page should not be closed. I have copied the page to my sandbox to address issues raised and have requested help from [Vibhijain], who initially wrote me back after my first request for advice. I am looking for constructive guidance and will work to create a page that complies with the guidelines of Wikipedia. Corrections have been made subsequent to discussions above on 10 July 2012 in order to address the concerns stated by the above. LWilkins93
 * Note to closer In response to DBigXRay's message about secondary sources and citing sources, I wrote, "Thank you! Are the sources I currently have on the Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric page not formatted correctly? My secondary sources are Seasons Magazine, St. Louis Magazine (St. Louis, Missouri), New York Social Diary (online International Reach), and The Studios at Key West (Museum, Key West, Florida). These meet the Wikipedia definition of reliable sources, are these sufficient? LWilkins93"
 * Note to closer In reference to the five users that have posted above, I have since their posts addressed each issue raised and made the necessary and requested additions and/or deletions. In addressing the three cited reasons for deletion, each has been addressed as follows:
 * 1. Peacock Wording and meandering personal/ corporate promotion-eliminated.
 * 2. Notability-According to Wikipedia, a page "is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. A single independent source is almost never sufficient for demonstrating the notability of an organization." This page references industry regional sources in Seasons Magazine and St. Louis at Home Magazine, internationally recognized online sources in The New York Social Diary, and the Museum industry in The Studios of Key West.
 * 3. Reliable Sources-Wikipedia suggests that secondary sources be listed as "editorial control"-please see the secondary sources listed above. I have not heard back since the initial posts on 10 July 2012. Will this discussion be closed and the page be allowed?


 * Strong Keep Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric is important in the history of 20th century fashion in the United States. The artists working with Thatchers' Fine Timeless fabric created an entirely new genre of textile design for fashion: The Lilly Pulitzer Brand. There are over 400,000 Lilly Pulitzer fans on Facebook alone, each fan touched by the designs of Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric's artists. They are taking their iconic designs into the arena of home textiles. --Lwilkins93 (talk) 19:58, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * To be fair most of the peacock terms have now been removed, and Lilly Pulitzer is notable, but notability can't be inherited. There are very few reliable independent sources that provide any coverage of Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric. Maybe the company will be important one day, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be notable. CodeTheorist (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for noticing my changes. In regards to notability, the artists created the look that is Lilly Pulitzer. The Lilly Pulitzer brand promoted its artwork in order to gain notability. These artists are taking what made the Lilly Pulitzer brand notable-their own work: the designs-and transferring it to the home textiles under "Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric. (Lwilkins93 (talk) 13:07, 15 July 2012 (UTC))


 * Notable Sources The sources used on the Thatchers’ Fine Timeless Fabric page are much more substantial that the examples of “trivial coverage” given for  the “Depth of Coverage”  portion of the Wikipedia’s “Primary Criteria”  for notability of businesses and  companies. (Lwilkins93 (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC))
 * Delete - with regret I have to agree with the other editors. There are some reliable magazine articles cited, but they are generally 'specialist' and 'local' publications, so would not meet the notability requirements for companies. In addition, the magazine sources spend far more time talking about Becky Smith, only mentioning Thatchers Fine Timeless Fabric at the very end. We need to see more than brief mentions to prove notability. In my view, an article about Becky Smith would stand far more chance of success (in addition the notability requirements for people are slightly less onerous). Sionk (talk) 13:44, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * While I am delighted that you agree that the cited sources are RELIABLE, I am confused as to your reasons why they do not meet WIKI's notability requriements for companies."The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, national, or international source is necessary." WIKI. Pursaunt to Wiki standards, the sources cited indeed meet the exact specifications as outlined above. Thatchers' inception was in, and is currently based in, Saint Louis. Articles written by reliable, secondary sources, most certainly first came from this geographical area. GO Design Go, a NEW YORK based, online secondary source was added as Thatchers' gained a hold in thIS new geographical area. NYSD, a fourth secondary source, is an INTERNATIONAL online SECONDARY source, added thereafter as Thatchers' became a presence internationally. Further, WIKI's Primary Criteria on Notability is open, it does specifically state: "A single independent source is almost never sufficient for demonstrating the notability of an organization." I have listed not one, not two, not three, not four, but FIVE secondary sources.


 * Further, the purpose of including Thatchers' is because the components which make up Thatchers', notably the art in the textile designs, corraborates with that which is also specifically outlined in WIKI's section on Notability: hence, "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." The art which is Thatchers', has, and continues to have, an important and impactful part in the United States textile design history.


 * Furthermore, while it is true that Becky Smith created this company, the artists ARE the company. A company aches through it's human components. The Thatchers" company, as well as all companies, are merely actions of those who act on it's behalf. The company name is merely what identifies a collaborative effort of those within the company. All articles topics are titled, or refer to the company, "Thatchers' Fine Timeless Fabric". In creating the page on the company, the history is revealed through the actions of those who created it.(Lwilkins93 (talk) 22:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC))


 * Bear in mind 'Go Design Go' is a website for a Design Centre, so not a reliable journalistic source. To be honest, I have my doubts about the other magazine sources because they each repeat the same meandering, confusing story about a chair, a grandmother, a French Mill, Lilly Pulitzer, without really explaining the connections with great certainty. Thatchers Fine Timeless fabric seems to be the commercial face of Becky Smith, who (inspired by her grandmother) arranges the design, production and distribution of fabric (designed by Pulitzer designers) and upholstered chairs. I think that's all that can be safely gleaned from the sources, in my opinion (I can't even see anything that says it was set up in 2007). Everything else is tangential. If the artists are employees of the company then you would need to provide proof to justify their biographies making up a third of your article. If Thatchers has had a major impact on fabric design, you will need to cite that statement to a reliable source. Sionk (talk) 03:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note to closer Thank you for your suggestions. Revisions have been made pursuant to your suggestions. Go Design Go is an online trade magazine, reporting within the industry, relevant news. Seasons Magazine, Saint Louis AT HOME Magazine, NYSD are all notable secondary sources within WIKI standards.For those individuals who are not within the textile industry, Brunschwig et Fils is one of the oldest most prestigious brands and being a part of that substantiates credibility and importance. I am happy to make any changes to comply with suggestions. (Lwilkins93 (talk) 04:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC))


 * Delete and salt. No assertion of notability. Sources are tenuous at best. Trusilver  06:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.