Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Beatles' characters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete (deleted by Stormie) Kevin (talk) 10:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The Beatles&

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I know it's the Beatles, but this is not notable - and all these characters can be discussed in the individual articles. Tenacious D Fan (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, looking at this, this page should be deleted and locked. The guy has had the page deleted before. Tenacious D Fan (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Speedy Delete per WP:SPEEDY G4: Recreation of deleted material. -- JediLofty User ¦ Talk 10:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's not eligible for speedy (G4) as it has not had a previous AfD discussion. The article should be removed, but I'd like to see some of the information sourced and put in the various articles.  BradV  12:10, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep as it is, or convert to prose. I don't think the argument that it is not notable is valid. It is as notable as, or more notable than List of Kill Bill characters or other similar pages. Another argument, that there are no sources, is true, but I think it should be kept for the same reason we keep plot summaries in film articles (the film itself is the source). Perhaps this could be placed as prose into The Beatles, but that article is already quite lengthy. Ward3001 (talk) 14:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Characters in films are different to characters referenced perhaps one or twice in a song. Tenacious D Fan (talk) 15:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How? What makes film characters more notable than characters in a song, especially when more people have heard the song than have seen the film? Ward3001 (talk) 17:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - Every character and every song can easily be sourced. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and this is an encyclopedic article. Several characters have entered pop culture... Particularly notable is the list of real people included in the songs, near the end of the article... Frog47 (talk) 19:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * These can (and probably should) be listed on the individual song articles — an article like this is not necessary. Mr. Absurd (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete: Non-notable. A character mentioned or reference in a song is much different that a character in a book or film (and even those characters should have established notability, sources, and out-of-universe information). Mr. Absurd (talk) 02:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How? What makes film characters more notable than characters in a song, especially when more people have heard the song than have seen the film? Ward3001 (talk) 02:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really think you can make any valid comparison between a character in a film and a character in a song. I mean, for one thing, a film character actually appears on screen, has conversations, a backstory, personality, etc., and besides the in-universe information there's the origin of the character, perhaps casting or production information, development of character, etc. This really wouldn't be possible for a character in a song. Also, the reason for having lists of characters is because characters are vital to the plot of a film. I don't really see the point of this list at all. Mr. Absurd (talk) 04:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Likewise, the character Eleanor Rigby is vital to the song Eleanor Rigby, as are hundreds of other characters in The Beatles' music. And I think it's fair to say that, within the time restrictions of a song (about two to four minutes), most of The Beatles' characters are developed (i.e., personality, backstory, etc.) about as much as a film character could be developed in two to four minutes. Ward3001 (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but films last longer than two to four minutes, and a character in a film who is that minor would normally not be included in a list of characters. There really is no convincing comparison. Mr. Absurd (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You missed my point (perhaps from my inadequate explanation). My point is that, for The Beatles' music, their characters are very notable, as are many characters in a film. And within the paraemeters of a song (rather than a film) they are well-developed. If we were talking about a character from a song by a one-hit group, it might not be noteworthy. But we are talking about characters that have had tremendous cultural influence, as much or more than most film characters. Ward3001 (talk) 20:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * But without context, what purpose does this list serve? A list of film characters has some purpose (arguably not very much, and I don't like them myself) because they contain information, as I said above, about backstory, personality, origin, casting, development, etc. This list doesn't even make an attempt at any prose. Mr. Absurd (talk) 04:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  17:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete I just can't see how the subject matter is remotely notable for an encyclopedia. --Bardin (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why? What makes the subject matter not "remotely notable"? Ward3001 (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What makes the subject matter "remotely notable"? Has there been any significant coverage of this subject matter in reliable sources that are independent of the band per WP:N? Bardin (talk) 15:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Characters in The Beatles's songs are as notable as characters in films which have Wikipedia articles, such as List of Kill Bill characters and others. Have The Beatles' characters had "significant coverage ... in reliable sources that are independent of the band"? Without a doubt, yes. These characters have had a tremendous impact on popular culture. This is The Beatles we are talking about, not one-hit groups. And if citations are needed, then the article needs a refimprove template, not deletion, just as many other articles (including articles listing film characters) need sources but are not deleted. Ward3001 (talk) 15:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Without a doubt"? In that case, sources should be easy to find.  Unless, of course, you just find sources that discuss the songs rather than the characters featured in the songs ... which I think is much more likely to be the case. --  JediLofty UserTalk 15:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There should be sources that discuss the characters (the songs are 40 years old and more than a little popular), but they can't be added if the article is deleted. Let's try to keep things in perspective. If this article is deleted, then we need to take a good look at 30, 40, possibly many more lists of characters from major motion pictures that should be deleted for the same reason. Sources cannot be added overnight. Most Wikipedia articles are works in progress. Add refimprove, but don't delete. Ward3001 (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A couple of things. This list only mentions characters in the Beatle's songs that are referenced by name. But surely, 'characters' exist even without actual mention of names. What about the (presumably) the woman who is described as the day tripper? Why isn't she mentioned. This is a bit arbritrary. Also, the argument that film character pages need to go smacks of two wrongs. And another thing, characters in films are more notable. The Dude anyone? Tenacious D Fan (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Two wrongs, I agree, so why not zero wrongs. I'm not arguing to delete the lists of film characters. Let's keep them as well as The Beatles' characters. And I strongly disagree that film characters are more notable. See my comments elewhere on this page. Ward3001 (talk) 23:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ward, you might want to read this. Just because another list exists, it isn't an argument for why this should. indopug (talk) 01:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually I had already read it, but the existence of other lists is not the crux of my argument (perhaps not stated very clearly). My point for editors who favor keeping the lists of film characters (as I do) is that The Beatles' characters are as notable as characters in other lists. Obviously if editors don't favor keeping either list, that argument has no bearing. But I think the same standard should be applied to both types of lists. Ward3001 (talk) 02:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "The Beatles' characters are as notable as characters in other lists". No notably has been established for the characters in this list. Why should there be an article listing them? WesleyDodds (talk) 03:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're an editor who believes that no list of characters (film, music, or otherwise) is worthy of an article and that all such lists should be deleted, fine; I disagree but respect your opinion. If not, please tell us how how any list of characters in notable, how The Beatles' characters are less notable, and give us links to pages with lists of notable characters. Ward3001 (talk) 22:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What I, you, or anyone else think of other character lists is irrelevant to the discussion. Why is this list worth keeping? What makes it a notable topic in its own right? That is not currently established, and without establishing notability for this topic then there is no reason to keep the page. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:14, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete At best information on this characters would go into the articles about the songs that mention them. There's no reason for a list to exist. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. If this article was titled List of Characters in Beatles' Songs, it would be fine as it is made up of a good many wiki-notable people. Just as "List of Desperate Housewives characters" or "List of Beatles' songs" are acceptable articles, so is this one. Gdavid3 (talk) 03:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest Moving article to List of Characters in Beatles' songs Gdavid3 (talk) 03:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete: per nom. Also, I believe it might be OR to label names mentioned in a song as "characters". indopug (talk) 09:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - not notable. it is a stretch to call some of these "characters". The Beatles' songs are notable, the random names that they use in them are not --T-rex 01:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.