Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Bell Game


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. ‑Scottywong | converse _ 01:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

The Bell Game

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The subject is a non-notable HIGH SCHOOL sports rivalry that fails the specific notability guidelines of WP:SPORTSEVENT and WP:NRIVALRY, as well as the general notability guidelines of WP:GNG. As editors who are familiar with our sports and events notability guidelines should be aware, we err on the side of NOT including high school athletes, sports teams, events and rivalries in Wikipedia because they are of extremely limited interest to our readers, and are usually heavily dependent on local and non-independent sources for documentation. This particular article has one reliable source of sufficient coverage, and then conflates other trivial, WP:ROUTINE local media coverage to make it appear as if it were properly sourced. It's not. Notable rivalry games should generate substantial in-depth coverage over time to satisfy GNG; this one does not. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep this is a tradition in the city that it's held and has been for over 100 years, it routinely recieves coverage through news both local and on the state level. This clearly passes as a "notable" event even if it doesn't meet the GridIron requirements, it bypasses those by passing the GNG overall, consider "The game is a sellout or near sellout every year. More than 13,000 fans pack Pueblo's Dutch Clark Stadium. One side of the stadium is filled with fans wearing the blue of Central. Centennial red is prominent on the other. No other single game sporting event in Colorado comes close to being this big." from [] just that statement makes this pass GNG. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:53, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Dirtlawyer1 does that satisfy your concerns? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "the eighth-oldest high school football rivalry in the country" - []
 * "experiences as the "Bell Game" between Centennial and Pueblo Central, the oldest High school Rivalry west of the Mississippi" Playing Piano in a Brothel: A Sports Journalist's Odyssey by Terry Frei
 * " For the 100th time, Pueblo Central and Pueblo Centennial are set to lock horns in what is perhaps the state's greatest high school rivalry. The game has become known as the Bell Game and annually attracts the state's largest crowd of the season." []
 * "Football roundup: Pueblo Centennial routs Pueblo Central in historic Bell Game" []
 * No, sir. WP:ROUTINE mentions in pregame coverage and routine local media coverage of game results don't cut it.  You're going to need to show some meaningful, in-depth coverage of the rivalry itself discussing the rivalry's history and significance.  Blurbs from the local newspaper and TV station are probably not enough to overcome the inherent skepticism most editors have for high school athletes, teams and rivalries.  This one may be a closer call than many, but by the standard you're setting, there are hundreds if not thousands of marginally notable high school rivalries would satisfy GNG.  That's not the intent.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:17, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You have a national sports journalist book, state coverage through the Denver Post and regional coverage from Colorado Springs (Rocky Mountain News} local coverage through the chieftain and koaa. That's a pretty decent medley. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Your first, third and fourth quotes are WP:ROUTINE articles typical of newspaper and TV website coverage of local high school sports, not meaningful in-depth coverage. In order to evaluate, your second quoted source, you need to provide more than a brief snippet from a hard-copy source.  Bottom line: you need something more -- like feature article coverage sufficient to write a complete and well-sourced Wikipedia article about the history and significance of the rivalry (i.e. not routine pregame announcements and post-game results).  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:38, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * FYI, the quoted passage from the Terry Frei book cited by you above is the sum total discussion of the "Bell Game" in the entire book (see here). Again, that's not significant coverage sufficient to satisfy WP:GNG.  It's a passing mention, not anything like significant coverage.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:48, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "Colorado Springs has nothing on Pueblo. ... and the Bell Game is noted as the oldest high school football rivalry west of the Mississippi River" [] Colorado Springs Gazette
 * "Oldest Rivalry in the west" [] Picture from 1935
 * All time oldest rivalry of all Colorado high school sports 1892-2002 (this was time of publication and it a pdf. I couldn't link to that) -Colorado High School Activities Association
 * I think I have provided enough to show that it's not just routine local coverage and if those things aren't enough to keep the article well it happens. I think it definitely passes because it is a HUGE community event that receives multiple coverages and the duration of the coverage is really the deciding factor. I'm not putting it at a high level of importance but it does pass the notability guidelines. I think the difference here is that it is the largest in event of it's kind in Colorado (really big factor that makes it notable for the area), has the age factor of being the oldest and longest rivalry here and overall the 8th of the nation and the added trifecta of book coverage, state, regional and local coverage should do it. I don't think a merge is appropriate because it's not just one high school. When I stubbed this I was attempting to not get into a regional circle jerk and just stick to minimum facts. I guess we'll see how the discussion goes. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:58, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Colorado-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. The nominator puts it so  well, including  citing  the relevant  guidelines, that  there is little else that  I  can  add except  to  reinforce the routine of the  coverage of what  is not  a professional  game and what  is only  of local or at  best  regional, interest. The fact  that  it may  have been taking place for a very  long  time does not  score any  points for notability and it's not  exactly  a boat race. The game has coverage in  the school articles but  one of the few supporting  sources is a dead link leaving  the rest of its importance as POV.   Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Kudpung As I explain above it is not just routine coverage. It gets local, regional and state coverage and is mentioned in other areas as well this is just an example [] I don't include these cause i don't know if they are really reliable, help me understand what yo want this to meet to not make it routine. It's the largest high school sporting event in Colorado, It's the oldest rivalry in high school sports in Colorado, It's been ongoing since the 1800's, It's the eighth oldest in the country according to reports. Those things make it pretty darn notable. I'd also point out this article from 1992 addressed one of the concerns User:Dirtlawyer1 had [] indicates this game had coverage even back to the 1800's "The ball had not been in play more than a minute when Marvin made a touchdown for the South Siders (Central) amid tremendous cheers by the Mesa contingent. Cohn's try for goal was a failure. Neither team failed to produce any scoring threat after that and the game ended in Central's favor 4-0."


 * So began the Central-Centennial High School football rivalry in 1892. That description appeared in The Pueblo Chieftain and the longest ongoing high school football series in Colorado was under way." That is probably the most in-depth article I've found that actually gives a lot of the history of the game. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:06, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * There is also coverage of the history of the game in the book "The Steel City Football Almanac" By David Mihalick published in 1970 which is part of the information that the article above is based off and apparently although I can't find it the game was subject to a cable tv talk show interview with the author. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 17:19, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. and Kudpung กุดผึ้ง. Despite larger claims, it is of purely local interest, as the Rocky Mountain News article of 12 October 2000 makes clear. Both the Rocky Mountain News and the Denver Post have a subscription base in Pueblo. --Bejnar (talk) 22:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.