Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Body and Blood of Christ


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect to Body and Blood of Christ and disambiguate. There is a clear consensus that this article should not exist as it stands, and substantial support for a disambiguation page existing at the target page. The question of whether Blessed Sacrament and Eucharist should be merged deserves its own discussion separate from this. bd2412 T 14:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The Body and Blood of Christ

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Can anyone make sense of this article? Adam9007 (talk) 00:25, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. To answer the question of the nominator, no I can't. I'd suggest a redirect (it could possibly be a plausible search term), but there are too many possible options there. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 01:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 *  Redirect to Transubstantiation , which comprehensively describes what this article was trying to get at.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 01:58, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Change vote! to Delete and disambiguate Everyone has made good points here about where it should go, and I agree it shouldn't be limited to one church's meaning by any means, so I would agree on it listing multiple options for the phrase.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 10:05, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Transubstantiation per Nate. Patar knight - chat/contributions 03:26, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think in the strictest sense that transubstantiation is still the best target, but it's probably best to redirect to Body and Blood of Christ and have a DAB/BCA there. Patar knight - chat/contributions 22:36, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Transubstantiation per Nate. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:34, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I am neutral as to what should be done with this page. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect Delete and make a disambiguation page Updating my !vote to reflect new information from other !votes. to consubstantiation or transubstantiation. The whole debate centres around whether the communion literally transforms into the body and blood of Christ, as believed by Catholics, or whether the process is merely symbolic, as Protestants believe.  Either way, a redirect to Eucharist would be the very minimum.    Dr Strauss   talk   15:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Eucharist. The literal belief is held by the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox as well, and the transubstantiation article is mainly about the Latin theology (it does have some Eastern theology, but not enough where I think it is a good target for this redirect). Some Protestant groups also use the terminology in their liturgies even if they hold a view of it as a memorial. Transubstantiation is simply too Latin Church focused for a topic that is central to Christianity as a whole. Pinging to see their views on this alternate target. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Support seems good to me.   Dr Strauss   talk   16:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Also as a note, I've notified WikiProject Christianity, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy since this is probably one of the more significant redirect discussion targets given its central significance to every branch of the world's largest religion. If someone thinks there are additional WikiProjects that should be notified, please feel free to do so. For what its worth Body and Blood of Christ redirects to Blessed Sacrament. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * No objection in principle to a redirect if there's consensus as to exactly where. The disambiguation suggestions below seem like a better option, frankly, as they cover for more eventualities. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 23:41, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Eucharist, if anything. Transubstantiation would be a very pov redirect as it is a particular view regarding the topic. Many Protestants believe the Eucharist to be a partaking of his body and blood without believing in transubstantiation. --JFH (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Eucharist, or one of the others. Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete and disambiguate There's no reason to have redirects at both Body and Blood of Christ and The Body and Blood of Christ, much less redirects to different targets. Suggestion: Body and Blood of Christ should be changed to the style Body and Blood of Christ may refer to.... with a few bullets to Anaphora (liturgy), Blessed Sacrament, 5 or 6 articles beginning with Eucharist, Transubstantiation, etc. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete and then disambiguate All of the above suggestions have merit, but I think the most recent one, a disambiguation page linking to many of the other options listed above, is the most equitable and NPOV. Jclemens (talk) 18:42, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * , I'd be open to the disambiguation option, but I think the deletion makes little sense here for one reason: the phrase The Body and Blood of Christ in that exact syntax is used in many Christian liturgical traditions during the act of receiving communion, making the use of the definite article here a likely search term. Disambiguating Body of Christ I like a lot, and then keeping this as a redirect pointing to it could be useful. I respect your thoughts on these matters, so if you have a specific reason for deleting the redirect I'd be interested in hearing it. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I was unclear--by delete, I mean that there is no need to preserve the current content in any way. Ultimately, one of The Body and Blood of Christ and Body and Blood of Christ should be a disambiguation, and the other a redirect to the disambiguation. Does that clarify sufficiently? Jclemens (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. That makes sense. I've struck my !vote above, and added a delete !vote below here. I concur with your reasoning. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete and disambiguate, with the understanding that there is no prejudice against the recreation of a redirect to the disambiguatin page after the current page history is removed. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete and disambiguate Sondra.kinsey (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete and disambiguate Agree with Bmclaughlin9's earlier point. Summoned here by a notice in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Eucharist There is no need for disambiguation because all the other targets are subtopics of the eucharist; it makes little sense to make a disambiguation page that (badly) reproduces the section on various theories about how it "works". Mangoe (talk) 14:05, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Blessed Sacrament, which is "a devotional name used in the Latin Church of the Catholic Church, as well as in Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, and the Old Catholic Church, as well as in some of the Eastern Catholic Churches, to refer to the body and blood of Christ in the form of consecrated sacramental bread and wine at a celebration of the Eucharist." Per, already directs there.  Scolaire (talk)
 * Redirect probably to Eucharist or Lord's Supper. Blessed Sacrament is primarily a Catholic term.  I believe that Catholic doctrine has five or even seven sacraments, all of which are presumably "blessed".  The present content of the article is about the resurrection, not any sacrament, so that there is nothing to merge.  If there is some other potential target, I would not object to making it a disambiguation page, but it may be that a redirects here capnote will be sufficient to deal with that.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:28, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Note Lord's Supper is currently a redirect to Eucharist. Body and Blood of Christ redirects to Blessed Sacrament, which is a free-sanding article, which appears to be duplicating Eucharist: should they be merged?  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:34, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes. Mangoe (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree with merge. I still think the suggested disambiguation page at Body and Blood of Christ is ideal.

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  J 947(c) (m) 05:02, 7 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.