Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Grocer's Encyclopedia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep the content. There is reasonable conversation as to whether it should be kept as a standalone or merged, but that does not require continued AfD where no one is arguing for the deletion of the material. Star  Mississippi  01:30, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The Grocer's Encyclopedia

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Only reference is just a link to the book, and I can't find anything in a WP:BEFORE check (including checking Newspapers.com) to satisfy WP:NBOOK. AviationFreak💬 02:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. AviationFreak💬 02:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. AviationFreak💬 02:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. AviationFreak💬 02:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. Here are some potential references:
 * Apart from the recent Oxford volume, I'm not sure how independent these reviews are, but there are many more in contemporary journals. pburka (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Apart from the recent Oxford volume, I'm not sure how independent these reviews are, but there are many more in contemporary journals. pburka (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Apart from the recent Oxford volume, I'm not sure how independent these reviews are, but there are many more in contemporary journals. pburka (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Apart from the recent Oxford volume, I'm not sure how independent these reviews are, but there are many more in contemporary journals. pburka (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Apart from the recent Oxford volume, I'm not sure how independent these reviews are, but there are many more in contemporary journals. pburka (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm leaning towards a keep here, as the sourcing I'm able to pull up gives off the strong impression that there was more coverage back in its day, that coverage just isn't online. It's used relatively frequently as a source in more modern day works, which kind of reinforces this. This is one where I doubt we'll be able to pull up much online without access to databases and some serious digging. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  17:04, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There's also mentions like this, which further reinforce that it seems to have been relatively influential in its day. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  17:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * On Newspapers.com (account needed) there's mention of various outlets that gave it good reviews. I'm not sure if those are just blurbs or reviews, but given the other sourcing I'm leaning towards them likely being reviews. Again, this is a situation where searching is hampered by it just not being online. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  17:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah - The first of these appears to be a fairly trivial mention of the book to me, and the second sort of borders on advertising IMO. I agree that there may have been more substantial coverage back in the day, but at the same time we ought to verify that such sources really exist. AviationFreak💬 03:19, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Merge >>> Artemas Ward (writer) (whose article would be made more comprehensive with inclusion). Djflem (talk) 05:00, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  I uploaded a copy of the article to File:The Nation (1914-03-12), volume 98, number 2541, pages 272–273.pdf. The article is in the public domain because it was published in 1914. The article notes: "Believing that the grocers and general shopkeepers of the United States greatly needed a book giving information regarding their business, Artemas Ward issued, in 1882, “The Grocer’s Handbook”. It was so crude a performance that he now feels ashamed of it. During the three decades that have since passed, he has diligently gathered material for a better book, the result being “The Grocer’s Encyclopedia;” a large volume of 748 pages, which treats of more than 1,200 subjects. The author’s activity, for twenty years, as editor of the National Grocer, gave him unusual opportunities, which he supplemented writing letters of inquiry to all parts of the globe. The result is a work of great value and interest—a book indispensable to intelligent distributers of foods and at the same time of importance to housewives, who would less frequently have inferior articles foisted on them if they knew just what to ask for and how to judge quality. In these pages they can find out when different fishes are in season; what are the best coffees, teas, potatoes, apples, wines, and so on. There are twelve pages on cheese, with descriptions of forty-eight varieties; twenty on coffee, with a color-page showing twelve varieties. Altogether, there are 449 illustrations, eighty of which are full-page plates in color; some of these are purely ornamental, but most of them are useful, as e.g., the four which show the most important cuts of beef. Under Canned Goods many will be surprised to read that, while in the matter of quantity we hold the record, in variety Europe surpasses us, Holland having canneries which put up several hundred kinds of edibles. Incidentally, there is a great deal of miscellaneous information, such as how to cook bacon, how to eat mangoes, how to test butter. There are also general articles of use to all business men, such as Trade-Marks, Partnerships, Good Will, Window-Dressing. The subject of adulteration is not treated as fully as it might be; nor does the author dwell as he should on the advantages of refrigeration over freezing."  The article notes: "Back in 1911, when William Howard Taft was President and a wooden stapladder sold for 27 cents, a 748-page book entitled "The Grocer's Encyclopedia" was first published. ... Today, 66 years later, the encyclopedia is not only a book collector's delight — bringing upwards of $50 each at public sales — but its contents opens an interesting window to a slice of bygone Americana. Beginning with a brief dissertation on the Abalone, the book literally spans the entire diet of the early 20th century; discussing staples that are still popular today, despite the current "junk food" craze, as well as edibles that have long since passed out of most diets."   The article is in the public domain because it was published in 1913. The article notes: "A GROCER'S ENCYCLOPEDIA AS A CHRISTMAS PRESENT A Christmas present that is suitable under all conditions for everyone in the grocery business is a copy of Artemas Ward's 'Grocer's Encyclopedia.' Mrs. Grocer could not surprise her husband with anything that he would enjoy more—nor anything that would be of more practical aid to him in his business. Mr. Grocer could not present his chief salesman with anything more likely to stimulate his interest in the business and increase his selling efficiency. Or, the salesmen can club together and give it to the boss. An addition advantage is the fact that Mrs. Grocer and Mrs. Salesman will find as much interest and practical information in it as will their husbands. The grocer or grocery salesman who possesses a copy of 'The Grocer's Encyclopedia' need never feel embarrassed by any questions pumped at him by a housekeeper of enquiring mind for that fine work will answer them all. Caviar types, truffles of different countries, mushrooms of all varieties, fancy liquors, any of a thousand wines, food names in five languages, etc.—anything and everything one may want to know is there. This is really a wonderful work. The text treats on fully 1,200 subjects, covering all kinds of foods—their habitat, cultivation, preparation for market, quality and grades—and containing many inside trade 'pointers,' which are of practical value in buying. The work is illustrated with 80 full page beautiful color plates of tropical fruits, nuts, cheeses, meats, game birds, etc., and hundreds of photographs showing food growing and preparation in all parts of the world. Its handsome appearance makes it additionally suitable for a holiday gift. It contains 748 pages 11 x 8½ inches in size, printed on heavy calendered paper, and strongly bound in buckram. It is said that it cost more than $50,000 to produce this book, but it sells for $10 per copy, delivery prepaid. Orders may be sent to The Spice Mill Publishing Co., 97 Water St., New York."  The article is in the public domain because it was published in 1914. The article notes: "Appropriate Christmas Gift A Christmas gift that is sure of an appreciative welcome by anyone in the grocery business is a copy Artemas Ward's 'GROCER'S ENCYCLOPEDIA.' It possesses double meri— as a reference work of high value and a volume full of entertainment to eye and mind. The advance of the business during the last few years renders it essential that the modern grocer and his employees keep themselves thoroughly informed and up-to-date, and nothing is more likely to stimulate the interest of the salesman than the fascinating light which this book throws on many phases of the grocer's calling and on innumerable items of his stock. Supposing that Santa Claus is working in the opposite direction—one may suggest that Mr. Gorcer could not surprise her husband with any thing that he would enjoy more—nor anything that would be of more practical aid to him in his business. Or, the salesmen club together and give it to the boss. Whether it is either, or both, Mr. Grocer and Mr. Salesman receiving the book as a Christmas remembrance, an additional and very delightful advantage is the fact that Mrs. Grocer and Mrs. Salesman will find as much interest and practical information in it as will their husbands. Such a combination is altogether too rich and too unusual to be passed by, when the cost is only a ten dollar bill. The grocer or grocery salesman who possesses a copy of The Grocer's Encyclopedia need never feel embarrassed by any questions pumped at him by a housekeeper of enquiring mind, for that magnificent work will answer them all. The text treats on fully 1200 subjects, covering kinds of foods—their habitat, cultivation, preparation for market, quality and grades—and containing inside trade 'pointers,' which are of practical value in buying and caring for goods, which you can obtain nowhere else. It is illustrated with 80 full-page color plates of fruits, nuts, cheeses, meats, game birds, etc., which the N. Y. Press describes as 'the most beautiful that ever appeared in a work of encyclopedic character,' and hundreds of photographs showing food growing and preparation in all parts of the world. The book contains 748 pages 11x8½ inches in size, printed on heavy calendered paper, and strongly bound in buckram. Its handsome appearance and wealth of illustrations make it a well-nigh ideal holiday gift. It is said that it cost more than %50,000 to produce, but it sells for $10, delivery paid. Send your order to the Retail Grocers' Advocate Bldg., San Francisco, California."  The book is in the public domain because it was published in 1926. The book notes: "Ward. Encyclopedia of Food. Descriptive information on food products found in grocery stores. Written for grocers and general storekeepers, but useful to students of domestic science and commercial geography. Previous editions are published under the titles of Grocer's Encyclopedia, and Encyclopedia of Foods and Beverages." </li> <li> The article is in the public domain because it was published in 1923. The article notes: "The Encyclopedia of Food, by Artemas Ward, is republished in a revised and enlarged form, the new book containing six hundred pages and thousands of illustrations. This is the most comprehensive and exhaustive presentation in book form of human foods that has ever been produced. The different foods are listed alphabetically, so that in reference to any particular kind of food all to do is to find the name in the alphabetical order The type is large and clear and the name of the food is given in a sidehead in black type for quick finding. There seems not to be a single item of food produced for market in any part of the world but what is given an exposition in this book, with interesting information as to where and how grown and the stages passed thru before reaching the family table. There are more than eighty full-page color plates picturing about two hundred different food subjects in their natural colors; and there are a thousand or more subjects illustrated in half tone pictures, many of them taken especially for this book. One who may be familiar with foods in a general way is apt to be astonished when turning the leaves of this encyclopedia to find how many things edible were unknown to him; and one is impressed with the gathering from all over the world to supply the ordinary family table of today. We learn of fish and flesh and fowl of vegetables and fruits, of fungi, of honey and tea and coffee, of cheese in many varieties, and, in fact everything for human sustenance and the pleasing of the palate. There is an appendix in the form of a dictionary of translations of food names in six languages—English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Swedish. There are also translations from the German, Italian, Spanish and Swedish words into English, each arranged under their particular language. There is also an alphabetical list of culinary and bill of fare terms. In the preface to his book Mr. Ward gives credit to Charles Martyn for the revision of the text and bringing the book in this respect to its present authoritative stage. Hotel people will remember Mr. Martyn from his former connection with hotel newspapers—in particular the many years he was editor of the New York Caterer. Another man to whom the author gives praise for valuable services in the production of this volume is Herman Eggeling, who is responsible for fifty or more of the colored plates and their exposition of the natural appearance of the different foods. The book sells for $10.00."</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow The Grocer's Encyclopedia to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 08:33, 18 April 2022 (UTC) </li></ul> Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 02:19, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. No objection against merging into the author's page. pburka (talk) 03:07, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: I oppose a merge as there is enough material in The Grocer's Encyclopedia to justify a standalone article. A merge of the entire article to Artemas Ward (writer) would be undue weight. The book meets Notability (books) based on the substantial coverage in reliable sources I have provided including a review in The Nation. Cunard (talk) 07:02, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I've looked over those sources and I'm not convinced that most of them aren't just advertisements. Two of them specifically mention the book as a good Christmas gift, the Inquirer mention doesn't list an author and it appears to be the only "story" on a page full of advertisements, and page 78 of the Hotel Monthly source you linked appears to just be an ad for ovens alongside listings of business transactions. Google Books shows no results for "Grocer's Encyclopedia" in that source, but I'm likely just missing it. I don't think these sources stand up to the bar of significant coverage in multiple reliable independent sources. AviationFreak💬 20:19, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There was certainly a different style of reviewing books in that era, and it's hard to tell what might be paid content. But the review in The Nation is critical ( "The subject of adulteration is not treated as fully as it might be; nor does the author dwell as he should on the advantages of refrigeration over freezing." ), and the more modern Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America is certainly independent. I'm confused by your claim that The Inquirer coverage isn't independent: what's their hidden motivation to write about a book that had been out of print for at least half a century? pburka (talk) 21:30, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * That's true about The Inquirer - Hadn't checked the date there. AviationFreak💬 01:40, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep The first four sources shared by Cunard appear to show significant coverage. I oppose a merge as the subject meets WP:GNG. NemesisAT (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.