Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The House Jacks


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep. Cbrown1023 02:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The House Jacks

 * — (View AfD)

Insufficient notability. Delete. --Nlu (talk) 08:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am also nominating the following related articles for deletion:
 * -- this one appears to assert sufficient notability, but notability is not actually shown.
 * -- similarly, asserts but doesn't actually show notability.
 * -- this one appears to assert sufficient notability, but notability is not actually shown.
 * -- similarly, asserts but doesn't actually show notability.


 * Keep (The House Jacks only) There's certainly no shortage of independent hits for these people on Google. I think they may pass notability. Akihabara 13:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete All - I didn't find much on google. I contest notability.  *Also, unreferenced.  /Blaxthos 17:31, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep KB is constantly getting more and more exposure, especially in the past year. --Brand Eks 08:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I have collected a number of newspaper articles on The House Jacks, Deke Sharon, and Wes Carroll over the past several years. They all therefore seem to meet the notability criterion.  Pointers to where to post references to said articles would be appreciated. 68.123.46.190 00:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC) — 68.123.46.190 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * IP votes? Post the references in the articles using the guidelines at WP:CITE. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Deke Sharon is widely regarded as the most important and respected arranger in contemporary a capella, and that's just the beginning of his contributions to this musical genre. This clueless attempt to delete him and the Jacks is flat-out vandalism.  CASA, Kid Beyond and Wes Carroll are also worthy of inclusion, IMHO, but omitting Deke and the Jacks would make Wikipedia's coverage of contemporary a capella woefully incomplete.  Those pages need more info, but should not be deleted.  Anyone who can't find hundreds of significant articles about these two subjects has no idea how to use Google. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.101.144.8 (talk • contribs).  — 67.101.144.8 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep Deke Sharon is to a cappella what Vince McMahon is to wrestling. He didn't necessarily start it, but he brought it up to speed and made it contemporary.  The Godfather of a cappella, if you will.  Removing any of these subject, frankly, would be a glaring absence in the Wikipedia.  As a cappella continues to move mainstream, references and information such as these are increasingly important. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.59.194.230 (talk • contribs).  — 24.59.194.230 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep To a certain community (those people who make and enjoy listening to a cappella music), these people are all giants. Hell, Kid Beyond's on tour with Imogen Heap right now. CASA and the ICCAs, respectively are the most established organization for contemporary a cappella and the most established competition for collegiate a cappella. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.58.233.181 (talk • contribs). — 130.58.233.181 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep The issue is whether they've been "the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the subject itself." I offer some concrete evidence.  The Recorded A Cappella Review Board publishes album reviews independently of all the nominees.  RARB has published extensive reviews of two House Jacks albums, three BOCA albums (1,2,3), and two compilation albums published by CASA (1,2).  Additionally, due to their prominence, all of the nominees are talked about in reviews of other albums.  Here are how many album reviews each nominee is referenced in:
 * CASA 113
 * BOCA 105
 * House Jacks 34
 * The RARB is not a "non-trivial published work". It's basically the myspace of a college a cappella. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, myspace is the myspace of college a cappella. RARB reviews are written independently by its highly exclusive staff.  Groups don't get to contribute to their own reviews, which is apparent in the negative reviews, which you wouldn't find in a PR puppet.  A better comparison would be a monthly niche magazine with half a dozen feature-length articles per issue. --Infotrope 19:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

--Infotrope 02:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC) — Infotrope (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Please keep all of the above. They are important links in the a capella community. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zenubio (talk • contribs). — Zenubio (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * ICCA 31
 * Deke Sharon 27
 * Wes Carroll 17
 * Kid Beyond (Andrew Chaikin) 8
 * But is the RARB itself "non-trivial"? According to its own Web page, it has published 664 reviews since 1994.  That's 55 per year, and hardly sounds like a sufficient quantum.  --Nlu (talk) 14:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Publication frequency is achieved by having a team of writers. Each person spends two weeks on each album.  At least three writers contribute to each review (each having spent two weeks).  Every review has at least two more people edit it, and they end up around 1500 words on average.  It's not somebody's blog about their cat. --Infotrope 18:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep All The vast contributions Mr. Sharon and the House Jacks have made to the contemporary a cappella genre mustn't be undervalued. However esoteric a cappella music may seem to the unfamiliar, the House Jacks are giants in their field. Wikipedia should recognize their importance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buflaro (talk • contribs) 06:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC). — Buflaro (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep the groups and organizations (CASA, BOCA), delete the individuals (Deke, Wes, Kid).  Snackwell 15:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Edit: According to the official site, the correct name is International Championship of Collegiate A Cappella, not "College", so we should delete the version with the incorrect name. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snackwell (talk • contribs).
 * Keep Kid Beyond (and I may be adding proof to keep the others as well later). Based on the policies in Notability_(music), Kid Beyond falls under the following: 4. Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one large or medium-sized country, reported in reliable sources. Imogen Heap's tour web page, SF Chronicle online listing his SF show with Imogen Heap, A crapload of news articles listed on Google News from multiple newspapers of concert reviews from the tour. I believe opening for a Grammy nominated artist such as Imogen Heap counts as notable, and I believe the United States counts as a medium to large sized country. For anyone else trying to defend the other 5, look for newspaper articles online that fall under the Notability_(music). I am very sure ICCA, CASA, BOCA, and Wes have articles like this, but I do not have the time to research it. (Deke may have such articles too.) I'm also fairly sure Wes and Deke fall under #7 (Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style.) 70.143.78.233 17:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC) — 70.143.78.233 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The "crap load" of google news articles is just twelve: some of which are satire or blogs and the rest of which are trivial references. Being the openning act to a notable performer is not sufficient for notability even if it warrants you a trivial reference in news coverage of the non-notable performer (e.g. "Bob Dylan performed at X univeristy...the "Non-Notables," a a cappella group at X university opened for him." savidan(talk) (e@) 00:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * (For the record, I am the same person who posted the above comment which you are replying to) The "satire" piece was a normal non-satire article in what happened to be a satire publication. (It may be a trivial publication, but it was not a satirical article.) And the blog entry you refer to is written by the staff of the Oregonian, a non-trivial newspaper. I feel there is a difference between a one time group X opening in a local venue for a notable band, and being the opening act on every single show of a national tour of a notable group, although I do not know where such a qualitative judgment falls in Wiki notability rules. On Kid's web site, he has a link to a 6 1/2 minute profile of just Kid Beyond on National Public Radio, broadcast on August 21, 2006. Does this count as a non-trivial reference? Even if the other references are trivial, they in combination with something like the NPR broadcast, establish a national tour.70.143.69.177 09:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep House Jacks Relevant articles:
 * Bliss, "Amplivating." Pasadena Weekly 30 Nov 2006
 * "Jacks of All Vocal Trades." Sacramento Bee 21 May 1993: TK15+
 * Eichenwald, Kurt. "'Doo-Wop-a-Doo' Will No Longer Do." New York Times 22 June 1997, late ed., sec. 2: 32+. Rwclark
 * These are trivial references in non-trivial sources (with the possible exception of the Pasadena Weekly, which is a trivial reference in a trivial source). Not everyone has access to these articles (I do). Could you please quote here what facts you think can be sourced to these articles for establishing notability? savidan(talk) (e@) 01:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Austin Willacy Relevant articles:
 * Torassa, Ulysses. "Teens Find Their Voice in A Cappella." San Francisco Chronicle 8 Apr. 2005: F1+ Rwclark
 * Classic "Human interest" piece. This article does the opposite of claiming that the group is notable. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep and Merge - Keep only Deke Sharon, Contemporary A Cappella Society, and The House Jacks and merge the rest. The problem with contemporary a cappella in general is that it's a niche topic. Should these articles survive this nomination, they should go under lots of improve with lots and lots of citations from third-parties, preferably those not directly related to a cappella.--Htmlism 17:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If we can't establish their notability with reliable sources, merging is not an adequate solution. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Acafella58 17:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)acafella58 — Acafella58 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep All ICCA is now updated with relevancy (Today Show and New York Times coverage). Deke Sharon... he's the single most notable guy in contemporary a cappella (cf the A-Cappella.com catalog, "In a cappella, there's only one Deke"), so unless this is vandalism by somebody who doesn't like a cappella he's gotta stay. BOCA has been updated to show more notability, i.e., as a compilation series that tracks the evolution of a musical niche, collegiate a cappella.  The House Jacks are the first true modern vocal band (cf. history of a cappella at A-Cappella.com. Kid Beyond was the first vocal percussionist with The House Jacks, and as such was the leader in bringing vocal percussion to a cappella. Wes Carroll produced two instructional DVDs that have been the most widely used method for teaching vocal percussionists. As of today, A-Cappella.com has sold cumulatively 2,945 videos and DVDs from Wes Carroll, just one measure of both Wes' notability and the spread of vocal percussion.
 * This is a catalog making a commission for selling their CDs, not an independent review. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep All There are many articles out there to be added. One just posted today: Totalvocal — Totalvocal (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Not a sufficient source and not one that makes a claim to notability. A claim to existence is insufficient. The closest it comes to making a claim to notability is: "About twice a year, the group embarks on small, five-day tours, mostly of high schools and colleges." savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep all and start over. Many of these articles appear to show sufficient notability, so I would suggest closing this moribund debate and renominating the articles on an individual basis.  Yamaguchi先生 02:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Just becuase this debate is clogged with puppets is no reason to start over. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep all Not sure if this 'delete' request is out of ignorance or personal vendetta, but it smacks of some dude's chip on their shoulder.  A quick - less than five minute - search of Wikipedia pulled up literally dozens of other far less significant and certainly far less complete or 'notable' citations, related to contemporary a cappella and also not.  If Wikipedia is hurting for space or bandwidth then there is  A LOT of housekeeping to be done, and of all these challenged entries I doubt any of them would go.  Keep them all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.8.100.193 (talk • contribs).  — 24.8.100.193 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The existence of other articles which should be deleted does not justify the existence of other articles which should be deleted. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Do not attempt to derail this discussion by making comments about the nominator's intentions or by mentioning other articles. The issue at hand is these articles and nothing more.--Htmlism 13:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see the nominator's Wikipedia user page. This individual fancies him or herself as some sort of zealot crusader against Wikipedia vandalism.  This attempt at deletion appears to have been made by someone who is not familiar with the topic but is just looking to put another notch in his or her belt.  This nomination does not seem to be a good-faith attempt to improve Wikipedia's coverage of a capella.  That's relevant.  It's not an attempt to derail the discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.101.47.199 (talk • contribs).  — 67.101.47.199 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep all. Definitely a lot of work to be done, but these can definitely be great articles. tiZom(2¢)  07:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunatley, they can't be great articles. When there are insufficient secondary sources, there is no way these articles will ever become much more than a vanity-laiden fork of the group's personal sites. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep all. These are all important people or organizations in this genre.  JDoorj a m     Talk 00:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep all. Contemporary a cappella is a legitmate musical genre. The founders and innovators are important. Articles need to be improved, but to dismiss a contemporary form of music and its influences is ignorant/borderline offensive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.122.102.31 (talk • contribs).  — 128.122.102.31 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * No warrants for either of the above two keep vote claims. savidan(talk) (e@) 01:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete all per WP:RS and WP:NOR. We have reliable secondary sources to establish their notable. The group websites are insufficient. The blurbs on the sites that sell their CDs are insufficient. The coverage in their school newspapers&mdash;which doesn't make any claim to their being known outside their campus&mdash;is insufficient. The passing mention in news articles when they open for a notable artist is insufficient. I could start a website for my own a capella group or award and make claims. Unless a reliable source backs it up, self-claims to notability are worthless. The sources provided by Acafella are sufficient to prove existence not notability as per WP:MUSIC. What's missing in all of these keep votes is the nexus of notability and verifiability. You can't establish your notability in ways that aren't verifiable and visa-versa. I strongly advise the closing admin to discount these IP votes or votes from very new accounts.savidan(talk) (e@) 00:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding the "doesn't make any claim to their being known outside their campus", which I assume refers to the ICCA article; the individual group competing may not be known outside their campus, but the competition itself shows up time after time after time after time in campus newspaper after campus newspaper across the country. (For the record in the 3rd article, the NCCA is what the ICCA was called prior to it becoming international) At what point does the competition itself become notable? I'd hope that if it's showing up in multiple student newspapers nationwide (and if you notice the McGill university link, also Canada), the competition itself becomes notable. How do you show that kind of notability, where no single article can show it notable, but the aggregate of 100 articles from different sources show its notability? 70.143.69.177 10:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems like we have one person here (savidan) with a compulsive desire to get rid of some valuable information on what 99% of the people posting here see as totally legitimate, noteworthy, and significant. I suggest we close this discussion and remove the proposal for deletion. Rwclark
 * As for "Best of College A Cappella", its basically just an intermural CD colleciton, not an award. Groups have to pay BOCA to get on the CD in the form of pre-purchasing 50 CDs at $5 each. BOCA has a financial incentive to accept as many people who send them stuff as possible and does not have any discernable selection criteria. It'd be like the National Merit Scholarship, if you had to pay them. savidan(talk) (e@) 03:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep all These articles can be notable.  S h a r k f a c e  2 1 7  06:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom.--Ryan 10:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep All A Cappella is becoming bigger and bigger as the days go by. These are all important people and organizations in the community. There have been numerous articles about them.
 * Keep the House Jacks. As per WP:MUSIC, they have gone on numerous international tours.        Ari Nieh 18:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there no provision for a work in progress? Contemporary a cappella is a relatively young field with little coverage, but that doesn't make the material any less interesting or less true. We should take what we have, run with it, and keep improving. --Htmlism 22:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.