Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Miracles Sing Modern


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  21:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

The Miracles Sing Modern

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This entire article is based on the premise that The Miracles recorded an album which was never released, but there is no convincing evidence that this ever happened. The explanation offered is that the sleeve of their album I'll Try Something New announces it as a forthcoming release - but what it actually says (quoted exactly, so apologies for the shouting) is:


 * THE MIRACLES CAN ALSO BE HEARD ON "HI WE'RE THE MIRACLES" TM 220, "COOKIN' WITH THE MIRACLES" TM 223 AND TAMLA SPECIAL TM 224.
 * MORE OF THE STANDARDS SAMPLED HERE CAN SOON BE HEARD ON AN ALBUM SOON TO BE RELEASED. WATCH FOR IT! THE MIRACLES SING MODERN.

Note that that the actual preceding Miracles albums ( HI WE'RE THE MIRACLES and COOKIN' WITH THE MIRACLES ) are quoted and THE MIRACLES SING MODERN is not - it appears to be nothing more than a description rather than a title and for all we know the album "soon to be released" was indeed released. There is otherwise a gap in the Tamla Motown catalogue at TM-234 which was allegedly for this album but that is really clutching at straws - no reliable evidence is presented that this was the album assigned that number, and anyway the gap is not especially significant - I could not find a TM-235 either.

The article also, in great detail, describes the content of this album and its artwork but the evidence for this is an unattributed mock up of what this album may have looked like, and that even says "I've never seen an official track listing; so this is a suggested track listing only".

At best, this is appears to be folklore being passed off as fact. At worst, it is a hoax. RichardOSmith (talk) 11:22, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - It does not matter whether or not it has been written in good faith; It just does not exist. Some folklore existing on non-existent things may qualify as being notable, but I do not see any reasonable way this could be justified to be worth of inclusion. Ceosad (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions.  SwisterTwister   talk  18:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete as this seems easy and here's nothing else to suggest a better article as mentioned above. SwisterTwister   talk  18:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep . If you look at the Miracles Album Discography,in the 1994 Smokey Robinson & The Miracles 35th AnniversaryBox Set collection booklet, Page 63,you will see a COMPLETE LIST of ALL of The Miracles' albums listed. It clearly shows that they did indeed record an album, catalogued as Tamla T-234,(or TM-234), and that this album was entitled "The Miracles Sing Modern" . This is NO HOAX, as Mr Smith would have you believe. If you don't believe it, get a copy of this collection and see for yourselves. These are Motown Records' words in their own liner notes ... not mine.
 * This album was intended for release right after their album I'll Try Something New in 1962. (Tamla T-230). This is also verified by the "Tamla Album Discography" in a ref that I had already included with the article. I don't know where Mr. Smith looked...but he obviously didn't look in the Tamla Album Discography (1961-1981)...if he had, he would have seen it. and it was ALREADY POSTED in Wikipedia by myself some 5 years ago in the article Motown discography based upon my research . Look in the "contents" box under "ALBUMS 1962" and you'll see it yourselves.
 * If Motown's own liner notes on not just ONE but TWO Miracles albums verifed it, and the Tamla Album Discography (1961-1981) verifies it, and Wikipedia's OWN "Motown Discography" clearly lists it (which would have been deleted a LONG time ago had it been incorrect) ,that serves as undisputable proof that this album existed...and my article even shows a ref link to the album's ALREADY COMPLETED FRONT and REAR COVERS. Here it is:
 * I'm sure that, if you check my sources, as Mr. Smith should have done, you will see my words are truthful...and that this album was not a fantasy or hoax .This is an important part of the early history of Motown's first, and most important group. A group, I might add, that is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
 * Thanks. Willgee (talk) 07:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * You're argument will be better received if you comment only only the article content and not other editors. I did, of course, look very carefully at your references and they are not reliable. Anyone can put anything on the internet - it doesn't have to be true. In particular, the "ALREADY COMPLETED FRONT and REAR COVERS" image is a fan mock-up which says as much. The bsnpubs site may look authoritative but it isn't. Wikipedia may look authoritative but it isn't. However, you are suggesting that there are some reliable sources. The sleeve of I'll Try Something New is, I believe, a non-stater as explained above, but the 35th Anniversary box set booklet may well be interesting. Can you provide a scan of it? RichardOSmith (talk) 12:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you should have simply asked me before printing notices on my article stating that it was a hoax . According to Wikipedia's own stated definition, a "hoax" is, and I quote:" an attempt to trick an audience into believing that something false is real."
 * I don't print hoaxes, and I don't make attempts to "trick" audiences.
 * There are also at least two other Miracles CD liner notes that mention The Miracles' "Sing Modern LP: The "Lost and Found:Along Came Love" CD, and their "Depend On Me" CD. The articles in both were written by Miracles biographer Stu Hackel.
 * How and where did you want that scan sent ? Willgee (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Please use the liner notes as further reference!!!!!! I do not see them included as reference in the article.--Halls4521 (talk) 23:22, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) It's not your article. The tag says that "some or all of its content may constitute a hoax" and given that the evidence to the contrary so far presented includes a faked-up album cover this still seems a very reasonable concern. The bulk of the article describes the content of the supposed album yet the same ref indicates that this isn't known - is that not presenting something false as real? My concern is not that this is a deliberate attempt to deceive but that things are being inferred (such as the preceding album's liner notes announcing an actual album title) and presented as fact when they ought not to be. It would be useful if you uploaded the liner notes here on Wikipedia so we can all view them and ascertain their reliability (the "undisputable proof" offered so far has been nothing of the sort) but also the lack of reliable independent coverage of the album would still suggest zero notability and something to counter that would be useful too. RichardOSmith (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You're splitting hairs. First you say that the article is a hoax and the album never existed...folklore. I prove to you that it did ...and then you start talking about the fact that the article isn't mine ..which has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. I'm well aware that, once submitted on Wikipedia,that it is no longer mine... even though I was it's author.
 * But that isn't the real issue, is it ?
 * Then, you state that there isn't any independent coverage of the album.
 * Are you sure about that ? Because, if not, you shouldn't make such statements. You're liable to be proven wrong...and you're about to be. Here is an excerpt from an article by Eric Luecking, dated July 24th 2009,for the " Soul Sides" website..a review of The Miracles' "Depend On Me: The Early Albums" 2 CD Set. The following is a direct quote from that article:
 * "The set comprises their albums through May of 1963. In addition to the classics heard to this day on oldies radio, you also get a reminder of the direction that the Miracles were heading (before reversing course) in 1961/1962 covering some pop standards and American songbook titles such as “On The Street Where You Live” and “I’ve Got You Under My Skin.” They even had a pending album release called Miracles Sing Modern that was ultimately shelved for unknown reasons. Perhaps they realized that they had too many great songwriters in their stable to sing other people’s songs. They had their own classics to create." Willgee (talk) 08:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Twice you said "my article". Unreliable sources (such as this latest) do not prove anything, I'm afraid. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. RichardOSmith (talk) 19:37, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep (with just in case alternative) I would think CD liner note references from the record company (Motown), and by an official biographer, would be proof of the album almost being release and not a hoax by the articles arthur or anyone else (although an actual track line up would be helpful). And I wouldn’t think the record company would make such a hoax either. As an alt:ernative, I would offer referencing the album in the main article about the group.--Halls4521 (talk) 23:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete - No reliable sources show that this album existed. The nom's rationale regarding the alleged title of this album is spot on. The other titles are in quotations and are referenced by a Tamla #; what the creator of this article has chosen to believe is a title is simply a description of their next upcoming album, not a title, since it is neither in quotations or given a Tamla #. Comments like "it was given the official catalog number of Tamla T234" are clearly WP:OR, and not backed up by WP:RS (the source which lists the record clearly asks folks to help make corrections to the list). Discogs makes no mention of the record, and that's a far more reliable site than the one used in the article. The album is a fan mock-up, completely non-RS (is great to include if the album could be proven to have been a thought). The best reference to show that the album was actually in a conceptual stage is the reference attributed to Eric Luecking. However the source link doesn't not make that attribution, instead listing the author as one "O-Dub", and the link is to a wordpress site, so there is no editorial oversite and therefore it is not a RS. Finally, at best there might be evidence that there was an album planned, and perhaps one of the names was the name of this article, but the rest of the article (what tracks might appear, who might participate) is pure WP:OR and fan supposition. But I think everyone is missing the point, and part of that is the original concept of whether or not this is a hoax. That is irrelevant to this discussion. The album simply doesn't meet the notability requirements of either WP:GNG or WP:NALBUM. Plain and simple. The simple fact that we are having so much difficulty even showing the album existed is proof of its lack of notability. At best, if the title can be proven, it could be mentioned on the group's page, but definitely not enough to give it its own article.  Onel 5969  TT me 12:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reminding me about this discussion Willgee, but am still not convinced that this article is worth keeping, as other editors have pointed out above that there are no reliable sources available. Ceosad (talk) 18:06, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: I will temporarily strike my vote, as I will be away for some days, and this case has been proven to be somewhat more complicated than what I originally expected. Ceosad (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   09:22, 22 December 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Sailor Talk! 17:49, 29 December 2015 (UTC) Will send The Miracles' Album Discography in a few days. Willgee (talk) 09:49, 3 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.