Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pageant


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Disagreement over whether the coverage is sufficient to establish notability or not and a relist has failed to generate more comments to sway it one way or the other. Davewild (talk) 17:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The Pageant

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I can't find significant coverage for this nightclub. Joe Chill (talk) 23:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The name "The Pageant Concert NightClub" implied that it was a night club. Which is true, it doesn't really have a night club feel to it.  Howerver, considering this article for deletion would be a grave mistake! The establishment has been in place for nearly a decade and it has accrued a long list of performances by major recording artists as well as small ones during that time.--Bushido Hacks (talk) 00:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Read WP:CORP. Joe Chill (talk) 00:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mackensen (talk) 12:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Major music venue in major city. That there wouldn't be significant press coverage is extraordinarily unlikely, but given the short, generic name it will be hard to isolate. The opening was apparently viewed as a significant event by news media , as was its first anniversary ; a Google Books search indicates it's relatively prominently mentioned in notable (as series) travel guides; it's profiled in a relatively prominent online music magazine that's also used as a review source in other Wikipedia articles . Last time I looked, we didn't delete articles whose subjects have so many mainstream press mentions that it's hard to sort the significant coverage out from the routine -- and that last is a pretty strong signal of notability. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:18, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:CORP. The article is nothing more but a spam advert for a non-notable enterprise; delete per WP:SPAM. Qworty (talk) 16:12, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - I've found a lot of references to acts going to the venue, which isn't enough, and I found a few travel guides referencing it (ISBN 076274409X) in more than a passing way, but nothing very strong. Going more on instinct on this. Could be persuaded either way. Shadowjams (talk) 09:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - Not really convinced it meets WP:CORP. Even if it is kept, it will need some rewriting to address some advertising issues.  Rather biased at the moment.   Cocytus   [»talk«]  18:20, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If it meets the GNG, as the press coverage I point out and the book coverage Shadowjams identifies indicates, why would WP:CORP matter? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * All of the news stories are local including the magazine. I assume that is why the user thinks that the nightclub isn't notable. Shadowjams was pretty much using WP:IAR. Joe Chill (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I really think you shouldn't speak for other users, whether you agree or disagree with them. There's certainly nothing invoking IAR in Shadowjams' comments. And your reference to "local" press has nothing to do with Wikipedia notability policy/guidelines; notability for many sub-national political officeholders is often demonstrated through local press coverage. Besides, the St Louis metro area has a population of roughly 3 million, putting it on the same scale as Albania, Kuwait, and Jamaica, and larger than Mongolia, Slovenia, and Namibia, so "local" press coverage is substantial. Finally, you're completely wrong about Consequences of Sound being local press, whether for St. Louis or anywhere else -- it describes itself as being based in New York and Chicago, and its most recent concert reviews, as I write, cover events in Chicago, Akron, St. Louis, Connecticut, New York City, and Washington DC. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Which isn't enough", "nothing very strong", and "Going more on instinct on this" sounds like IAR. It has to do with the guidelines because I've seen many users say that they think that local news doesn't show notability. I'm not in the miniority in that opinion. Usually it's inclusionists that say that local news is enough. Joe Chill (talk) 01:24, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't sound like IAR, particularly when the user is discussing coverage of the subject in reliable sources. What really sounds like IAR is your "I can't find significant coverage" comment, because your searching abilities have nothing to do with the applicable policies/guidelines [irony warning]. And if "local news" had something to do with policy or guidelines, you'd be able to source it to policy or guidelines -- and you can't, in no small part because "local press" doesn't mean anything important in measuring RS coverage -- "local" press for the LA metro area, for example, has greater reach than national press in about half the countries in Europe. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Try finding a guideline that says that all villages are notable (belief of many users). My comment has to do with guidelines and policies because of the sources I found. I don't have to write a paragraph or more about the sources that I find. I follow WP:BEFORE all of the time. So no irony there and I don't see how you came to such a weird conclusion. By the way, if it's not based on any guidelines, why did I link to WP:CORP? Joe Chill (talk) 01:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * A user talk page has been created for The Pagent submitting this page (as well as another page I created) to be considered to be part of the WikiProject St. Louis. I feel like I should have done this when I created this page. Hopefully, more local representatives can provide reason to support this article. --Bushido Hacks (talk) 18:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Note - I'm surprised my comment caused as much speculation as it did. I don't mind either way. It's fair to say it was IAR, although I wouldn't characterize it as that myself. My point was that for the level of looking I did I found some indication of notability but I was a little uncomfortable using only a travel guide as the only source. That plus other things I found suggest it's a fairly important venue in St. Louis, but I can't really say confidently either way. I lean towards keep because of that background, but pushed on the point I can't point to anything more definitive than what I've outlined above. Shadowjams (talk) 01:36, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * AFD can be a surprising place. Joe Chill (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. Shadowjams (talk) 01:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Re Local sources Related discussion taking place here: Articles for deletion/Roadmender (nightclub) Power.corrupts (talk) 15:12, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.