Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Reverb Syndicate


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was  Nomination Withdrawn. Due to excellent research input by several of the editors present, WP:RS issues have been resolved. I am happy to withdraw my nomination, and The Reverb Syndicate can enjoy their Wikipedia niche. Thank you, everyone, for a spirited discussion! Ecoleetage (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The Reverb Syndicate

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Obscure band with a woefully unreferenced article. A pair of brief chats on CBC and an interview on a college radio station hardly qualifies as the "multiple non-trivial" media sources required of WP:BAND; it fails all other aspects of WP:BAND, too. Ecoleetage (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

References have now been added for all quotes/facts/etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V1i2n3c4e5 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, I'll come back to this in a year or two once they meet more of the requirements.


 * Comment The new references link to the band's web site, not to independent media resources. The article still falls short on WP:RS Ecoleetage (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 *  Weak Delete  I declined the speedy due to a likely misunderstanding of WP:MUSIC in that I thought a tour of the UK satisfied as an int'l tour as it wasn't their home country. I find no evidence of reliable source coverage of this band. StarM  17:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Change to keep per sources found and added. There are still some legit questions re notability and performances, but they appear to have received significant RS coverage.  StarM  13:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete as being really borderline, but just south of the border (which is bad for a Canadian band, right?). As for speedy delete, declining was the right thing anyway, as they appear to at least make a claim of notability.  And by the way, they sound like a great band to drink beer and eat crab legs to, just not quite notable yet.   D ENNIS B ROWN  (T) (C) 19:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Will change when sources magically appear. Sam  Blab 21:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 22:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It turns out there are many articles about this band in the Ottawa Citizen. I've added four of those references just now. There's enough for WP:MUSIC criterion #1. Keep. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 06:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I saw those, hense my 'weak', but wp:rs is not just about a magical number of sources, and these sources don't seem to leave the city limits.   D ENNIS B ROWN  (T) (C) 12:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It also appears they have a friend at the Ottawa Citizen in Fateema Sayani, who keeps writing about them over and over. That sort of dilutes the credibility of the coverage. Ecoleetage (talk) 13:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I really don't think you can assume that Fateema Sayani is a personal friend of the band's just because she's written about them more than once. Bearcat (talk) 15:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The credibility of this source is seriously problematic -- one writer endlessly hyping a band is suspect. Ecoleetage (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * She's an entertainment columnist, whose job is to write about the local music scene. All it proves is that they're generating enough buzz to warrant coverage from a reporter whose job is to write about concerts that are generating buzz. The Ottawa Citizen is not a newspaper that would be expected to give an entertainment journalist much "write about whoever the hell you want whether our readers have ever heard of them or not" latitude, either — it's a major newspaper-of-record owned by a company that's not exactly known for going out of its way to support anything terribly far removed from mainstream interest, not an anything-goes community tabloid. Bearcat (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it proves nothing of the sort. It would appear the Ottawa music scene is fairly small if these guys keep turning up repeatedly in the local music column. And there is no evidence of "generating buzz" -- where did that come from (outside of the band's web site)? Your opinions on the newspaper and its owners -- while interesting for those of us who do not have access to the publication or know of its history -- are, nonetheless, less than relevant to the discussion of the ban'd notability or lack thereof. Ecoleetage (talk) 18:05, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.   — Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 06:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. References are local coverage, doesn't meet the notability criteria in my opinion. A band should have done more before I would support it.  PK  T (alk)  12:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've also added a reference confirming that they've toured well beyond Ottawa (including at least one show in, er, New York City), from a fairly substantial article in Chart — which, if anybody in this discussion has never heard of it, is one of the two nationally-distributed Canadian music magazines (Exclaim! being the other) that's sufficiently important to confer notability all by itself even if there weren't already other sources in the article. So that's WP:MUSIC #1 and #4. Keep. Bearcat (talk) 15:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not that it's all too important, but just searching them on Google shows the first 150 or so hits to be directly related to the band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V1i2n3c4e5 (talk • contribs)   17:13, 18 November 2008
 * Comment I just read the Chart coverage and, I am sorry to to say, it only reconfirms their total lack of notability (it also appears that Chart will write about anyone with a guitar, but that's another matter). As for the coverage: being invited to be part of a showcase (usually a line up of a half-dozen to a dozen obscure bands) is not the same thing as having a show (which did not take place here). The band appears to have been invited to be part of a line-up in some obscure offering by an obscure DJ for whom Google searches turn up nothing of value: and . A Google search to confirm the band's New York adventure turns up nothing:  -- there is no shortage of legitimate music media in New York, and none of those outlets even bothered to cite the band. Again, these guys just don't have any notability.  (And will someone please remove the references in the article that tap the band's web site as the source of alleged accomplishments?). Ecoleetage (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment – What matters, though, for the purposes of the general notability guideline (or for WP:MUSIC criterion #1), is that the coverage exists (and is independent of the band, and is non-trivial). It is not required that the coverage verify some additional accomplishment. At the article now stands, there are two articles in Chart, four in the Ottawa Citizen, and appearances on CBC Radio One. Furthermore, there is nothing in the WP:N guideline that discourages the use of local sources. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 18:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I politely and respectfully disagree. Four articles in one newspaper, all authored by the same writer, raises a huge red flag -- even by the hype-happy music media standards, this is dubious. If you read the The Chart coverage (rather than just acknowledge it is there), it painfully exposes the band has zero notability, and it states they were part of the line-up of an obscure New York showcase (for which there is no independent verification that they ever performed -- no New York media coverage of their gig exists). And the two brief CBC chats are, quite frankly, completely without substance. Yes, some coverage exists. And if we actually read the coverage and listen to the radio chats, it all circles back to the same fact: a non-notable band with no label, no charted songs, no fan base and no evidence of notability. Ecoleetage (talk) 19:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not to be a bother, but I removed the reference in the article to Elbo.ws (this appears to be a blog and not appropriate, per WP:RS), and I also removed the references that linked to the band's web site (I think the article would be strengthened by independent media sources and not the band hyping itself). Also, can someone please provide online links to the Ottawa Citizen coverage? As it stands, there is no way to confirm that the coverage is non-trivial. Thanks. Ecoleetage (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It actually is possible to confirm it if you go beyond the Internet to search for sources. (Sorry, that sounded snarky. :) ) Anyway, I have my library database results here in front of me: There are 28 articles in the Ottawa Citizen that come up in a search of "The Reverb Syndicate". A large number of them are directory-type listings of the band's performances, so that does not help towards notability. But many of them are either brief non-trivial mentions or substantial coverage. The "Rock born" article is 358 words about the band. The "space oddity" article is 473 words about the band. The "New to" article is briefer but still not directory-like, at 96 words. The "City" article is only 119 words but it confirms they toured England and Scotland. In sum, this does not represent "trivial coverage" according to what the guidelines label as trivial coverage. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 20:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering your paragraph runs 149 words, we can determine the Citizen’s coverage is not exactly in-depth. And, no, your comment was not snarky – my library doesn’t have access to that newspaper. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * DUDE!!!1 You are saying bands can't use quotes from their own website to verify notability?! Man, if you take that attitude, and NO new small town band that only plays corner bars and private parties with their own self-released CD will EVER get an article on Wikipedia! ;)   D ENNIS B ROWN  (T) (C) 19:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's not the situation here. Bearcat (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Chart, not to put too fine a point on it, is the Canadian music magazine of record. Coverage in that magazine is in and of itself sufficient to meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC. We don't apply subjective assessments of whether the magazine is being excessively generous in covering "nobodies" or not — if they've written non-trivial content about the band (as opposed to a passing mention in a concert listings section or something like that), then they meet the standard right on its face. Being written about in Chart is the Canadian equivalent of being written about in Rolling Stone. Seriously. Bearcat (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, but there is a problem: it is an article about a band with no label, no charted songs, no fan base, and some gigs in obscure or unidentified venues that have, without fail, gone unnoticed by the major media in every city where they've played. I am sure Chart is wonderful, but the band is just not notable. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's as may be, but Wikipedia's notability standards do not require a band to have had mainstream chart hits, to be signed to a major label, to play only notable music venues, to generate local media coverage in every individual city where they play a show, or to be able to quantify a fan base in the millions. Those things obviously support notability when they're present, but the only thing that's required is non-trivial coverage in notable sources that are independent of the band, and that criterion is met here. And to look at one of the concerts that's actually mentioned in the Chart article, the Towne House in Sudbury — bless its crumbling foundations — is kind of an obscure venue, so let me assure you of this: Sudbury isn't a market where bands go out of their way to get a gig for the sake of getting a gig in Sudbury, because it's not a large enough market to pay for the trip all by itself. It's a "hey, what the hell, it's on the way from Ottawa to Winnipeg" market where bands only turn up as part of an organized national cross-Canada tour. So even an obscure venue can still support notability, if it's in a market where, by definition, non-local bands simply aren't even going to show up unless they're in the middle of fulfilling WP:MUSIC's tour criterion. Bearcat (talk) 21:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: WP:BAND is a guideline to help interpret the ability of an article to meet the content policies of WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR; not to judge the fame nor the importance of the subject. If it has been noted in Reliable sources and somebody bothers to write the article, then there is no reason not to keep it. Double Blue  (Talk) 21:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Notability established the usual way. They don't have to be covered by the New York Times to be notable. And I don't care for Jayson Blair's music reviews anyway. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep clearly meets WP:MUSIC. Notable means that it has been noted by reliable sources and it has. Whether you personally feel it is important is immaterial. Double Blue  (Talk) 21:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And Bluesfest isn't at all an obscure venue (albeit happens once a year so not really a venue), just look at the bands who have played there; Bluesfest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by V1i2n3c4e5 (talk • contribs) 21:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - sufficient WP:RS from notable and significant Canadian secondary sources is now in place, meets WP:MUSIC per Bearcat et. al. Dl2000 (talk) 04:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Nomination withdrawn Hey, it appears the race is run. :) Ecoleetage (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.