Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Scouring of the Shire (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. While we have a lot of input here from users on both sides, the stronger argument here seems to be to keep. Particularly relevant was Andrew D.'s comment on the independent notability of this part of the novel, providing a number of sources specifically about this topic, which convinced at least one redirect/delete voter to change their mind. The article could use expansion to incorporate material from those literary critics, as currently the article is a relatively shallow plot summary. But in deletion discussions, we need to evaluate the notability of the topic, not just the sources that are currently in the article. ST47 (talk) 05:22, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The Scouring of the Shire
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It's one thing for a book (or a movie) to be notable. But a book chapter? This rather clearly fails WP:GNG and such. This is just a POVFORK of The_Lord_of_the_Rings (I don't think any other chapter from Tolkien book has its own article, nor can I think of any other chapter in general, either; there is also no corresponding category tree, which also suggests that in general, book chapters are not notable - and nothing here suggests this is an exception). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  04:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  04:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Andrew D. (talk) 16:16, 22 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge into The Return of the King While it is a frequently discussed part of The Return of the King, this chapter is not independently notable. &#8213; Susmuffin Talk 05:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge as suggested by Susmuffin.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect, but don't merge. There's nothing worth transferring over. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per AndrewD. It appears this has been analyzed by academics. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:27, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Selective Merge While there's not a whole lot worth transferring in the article, bits and pieces of it are usable.Hog Farm (talk) 07:09, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect to The Return of the King - The summary of the chapter in the main article of the book is already sufficient, and there really isn't any additional sourced information worth merging. Rorshacma (talk) 15:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Redirect to The Return of the King. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep This nomination rather clearly fails WP:BEFORE as there are numerous sources which discuss the topic in detail. A selection follows.   See also WP:NEXIST. Andrew D. (talk) 15:42, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The 'Scouring of the Shire' as the Narrative and Thematic Focus of The Lord of the Rings
 * The Scouring of the Shire as a Hobbit Coming-of-Age
 * " You Have Grown Very Much": The Scouring of the Shire and the Novelistic Aspects of The Lord of the Rings.
 * 'The Scouring of the Shire': Tolkien's View of Fascism
 * After the" end of all things": The Long Return Home to the Shire
 * Pastoralism and Industrialism in "The Lord of the Rings"
 * Nazis in The Shire: Tolkien and Satire
 * "This Is Worse Than Mordor!": The Scouring of the Shire as Conclusion
 * "Changed, Changed Utterly": The Implications of Tolkien's Rejected Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings
 * Showing Saruman as Faber: Tolkien and Peter Jackson


 * Keep Literary critics see the Scouring of the Shire as commentary on fascism. It has made the leap to having a broader social impact beyond the original novel. This is in literary terms a gold standard of notability and why we have standalone articles beyond the original novel - it exists outside the work it first appeared. For comparison the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four contains examples (of Communism) like Big Brother, Newspeak, thoughtcrime, doublespeak. -- Green  C  16:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep I see Screen Rant gives the event an entire article and calls it "a key event from The Lord of the Rings books".  Forbes and others mention that Game of Thrones writer George R.R. Martin mentioned The Scouring of the Shire is how he wanted his serious to end.  Seems notable.   D r e a m Focus  18:16, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect - Without actual elaboration on the above sources, the article doesn't need to exist. Regardless of their merit, this doesn't need to be split from the surprisingly poor parent article at this time. Should the weight of real world information on the topic overwhelm the other information, then it should be split. TTN (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge the sourced real-world info to The Return of the King, where the plot can be covered just fine. No need for a WP:SPINOUT at this time (or ever). – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. As pointed out, there's plenty of secondary sources for this. It's not merely any chapter: it's one of the most-discussed chapters of one of the most significant works in modern literature. To contextualise, in addition to what has been mentioned above and what GreenC has already said, the Scouring of the Shire has become a concept in discussions about fantasy literature. It signifies something beyond the work of art in which is included. The article should probably grow to reflect this. /Julle (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * When it grows, the it can be split out again per WP:SUMMARY. Right now this is just a WP:PLOT of a book chapter. The significance of a book chapter can be discussed in the article about a book until it grows too long for said book article. Right now it's not a problem. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:33, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Exactly. See WP:BKD.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:39, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment — In the "Foreword to the Second Edition" of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien said that the story had little or no connection to WW2, and had been conceived long before. To state that "Scouring of the Shire" is a "commentary on fascism" implies Tolkien didn't understand his own work.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not uncommon for critics/scholars to have an interpretation of a scene/plot point that is different from the original author. Aoba47 (talk) 02:38, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it's a strange rationale for keeping this article.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:39, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.