Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Southern Avenger


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus (after discounting the canvassed newbie opinions) is that he does not currently have coverage that is quantitatively and qualitatively sufficient to meet WP:BIO.  Sandstein  18:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The Southern Avenger

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Procedural nom; this has been speedied three times (by three different admins) in the last 10 days, so bringing it over to get a consensus; is it a) a viable stub, in which case we can leave it alone, or b) something deletable, in which case we can from now on G4 it as fast as it pops up and/or salt it. Procedural nom so I abstain. – iride  scent  22:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No Delete- The person in question has a listening audience, viewership and readership from further reaching localities than just Charleston, SC. This meets the requirements as stated in WP:BIO.The Kaleb (talk) 15:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete- Doesn't seem notable to me. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 23:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete The top hits on google were: his blog, his myspace account, his youtube account, photos of him with a scantily-clad model. This guy has the notability of a 15 year old!  An article in a college newspaper (even the Crimson) doesn't establish notability and the only thing popularizing him is his use of internet sites (such as Wikipedia) and the local newspaper as platforms for his controversial views. Themfromspace (talk) 23:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 23:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Er – did you actually read the nom? – iride  scent  19:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not Delete- His notability includes nationwide listenership and newspaper articles being written about him in places far away from South Carolina, meeting Basic Criteria per BIO. And before deleting again, consider merging into either one of the articles of The Charleston City Paper or WTMA.  --Filthy swine (talk) 23:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What specific notable content do you propose be merged? If it has yet to be written, as seems to be the case, why not just write it in one of those articles in the first place?  --Falcon Darkstar Kirtaran (talk) 04:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Lew Rockwell has posted his articles, and is even listed as the first source on the LewRockwell.com article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filthy swine (talk • contribs) 00:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Please explain in more detail which criteria in WP:BIO he meets. One college newspaper interview that glosses over his politics is not substantial enough to establish notability.  He is not widely recognized as a newspaper columnist or as a political commentator in any of the respective communities.  He needs more significant coverage.  The Avenger is already mentioned in the Charleston City Paper article, any more attention to him would unbalance the article. Themfromspace (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep The subject appears to have a notability which has garnered some National attention. There seems to be an opportunity to explore the sources available before reaching a final decision on removal. --Stormbay (talk) 01:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I see no national attention. Could you please provide links? Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  13:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * He appears to be gaining popularity in alternative media (I'm not a fan but...). There was a recent Wake-Up-America appearance which would be national in that category. I feel that this type of media coverage seems generally widely accepted in Wikipedia and this subject seems to be made an exceptiom to that trend. Either way, delete or keep, this subject has adequate media coverage to deserve a fair hearing. --Stormbay (talk) 18:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. This continues to qualify for CSD A7; the only thing which even seems to imply notability are the links, which fail to do so (as established at WP:BIO in which interviews and articles in student papers et cetera are not generally criteria).  Also, having property destroyed because you made someone angry does not make you notable.  This discussion is a good idea so we can salt.  --Falcon Darkstar Kirtaran (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. I moved two newspaper articles to the References section. The Post and Courier (Charleston, SC) appears to be a reliable source. As for the Harvard Crimson, I think its coverage in this case contributes toward establishing notability. A student newspaper's coverage of (say) on-campus parking problems can be dismissed as trivial, but its coverage of an off-campus entertainer who presumably has nothing to do with Harvard is another matter. Even so, The Post and Courier's coverage is arguably substantial on its own. Whether this person believes what heavays is behind the point. He is an entertainer who has been written about in some depth by other media, and that is Wikipedia's definition of notability. --Eastmain (talk) 06:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The Post and Courier is not a reliable source because it is not independant of the subject matter. The Southern Avenger is a columnist for that paper and the paper pays him to write for them.  Of course he would show up in the paper, thats what he gets paid for.
 * Comment Rebuttal He does not work for the Post and Courier. He works for The Charleston City Paper.--Filthy swine (talk) 15:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Be that as it may, being covered by a local paper is not significant media coverage. He would require significant media coverage from a national paper. He does not get significant regional coverage for local notability. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  15:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete yet again. As I noted when I deleted it before. No significant improvement since then. No significant independent sourcing. No assertion of notability. No significant media coverage. A couple of mentions by local papers is not significant. A review by media right there in Chraleston, South Carolina. Google search shows one blog hit and one dead link for "Jack The Southern Avenger Hunter" Google news gets two Post and Courier hits. Nothing at Google Scholar. An interview with The Harvard Crimson does not count as significant media coverage..  Dloh  cierekim  13:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * DON'T Delete Jack is gaining popularity on Youtube and is discussed in the radio industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.69.34 (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)  — 76.101.69.34 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Here is a new source, The American Conservative: http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2008/07/21/summer-break/

Tell me that's not notable.--Filthy swine (talk) 18:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to reread the notability, verifiability and reliable sources guidelines. It's a blog, and blogs are generally not considered reliable sources. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  18:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The American Conservative is not a blog. --Filthy swine (talk) 18:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh, it says right in the link, "/blog/". Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  21:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and this entry is not about him. It's telling us about a coming piece from him about someone else. In other words, The American Conservative is letting us know about a future appearance of his work. This is not the same as a reliable, verifiable source writing about him. Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  21:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Although not frequently(and tough to recover), some of his pieces have been referenced on Patrick J. Buchanan's official website, as well as by Richard Spencer in TakiMag's "Sniper's Tower" blog. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.91.7 (talk) 18:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Notability has been proven. As a good wikipedian, I have never and shall never start a frivolous article. Check the articles started by me in my contributions record. I move that discussion be closed and the article removed from the list of articles for deletion.--Filthy swine (talk) 18:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment This is the only article you've ever started. – iride  scent  22:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Layla Kayleigh Fry Street Fair. For a couple.  The burden of proof is not on me.  Nothing less than good faith can be shown when I start an article.  I have a proven record of only starting notable articles.  A small record, but indeed enough over a length of time to show a trend.--Filthy swine (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep, but the article needs more information. If more information cannot be provided, then it is a fruitless article. I know Jack is looking at this... add some more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.58.207.105 (talk) 18:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC) — 68.58.207.105 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep, by all means. Wikipedia has many non-notable articles, such as the one on the "Flat Earth Society" that I just visited mere moments ago. This is a specious argument, most likely started by someone who disagrees with S.A.'s politics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.156.195.41 (talk) 19:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC) — 72.156.195.41 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Do Not Delete- notariety has been proven. If the Southern Avengers article is deleted it will undoubtably be done out of spite and hatred for South Carolina, its people, and its culture.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.239.3 (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)  — 75.89.239.3 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * That's us told. – iride  scent  21:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment. Local newspapers are generally reliable sources. They can sometimes be lazy or reluctant to criticize local politicians or businesses, but in general they are reliable. While coverage in a national newspaper is helpful, it is not required. Similarly, campus newspapers are generally reliable sources. --Eastmain (talk) 20:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. However, the problem is that's all the subject seems to have very little local coverage and a mention in a college mag. This does not rise to the level of "significant media coverage" needed to claim notability. No national media. No claim to "household name status". No books about him. No scholarly essays or journals. We sometimes confuse these two issues. We can have all kinds of verifiable information about a subject that only establishes a lack of notability. Also, it can be very hard to find verifiable, reliable sources about subjects that are really notable. Such are the joys and sorrows of encyclopedists.Cheers,  Dloh  cierekim  21:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * He is clearly a notable paleoconservative. You do not subscribe to that ideology, that is fine.  But there is no sense in leading a one man crusade against someone that is clearly notable in his field. --Filthy swine (talk) 21:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At least 2 unbiased notable, sources have been cited as giving information about the subject, and at least 4 proving the subjuect's notability. There is no audience count assigned to the definition of notability.  And as about the subject's importance, the subject is important as one of the few paleoconservative voices left.  Paleoconservative commentary is not broadcast nationwide via the air waves or print.  It is generally locally oriented.  But the articles written and opinion expressed are shared throughout the national community of paleoconservatism.--Filthy swine (talk) 22:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do Not Delete- The Southern Avenger is a notable commentator and spokesman for paleoconservatism. SpencerCS (talk) 21:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes there is canvassing going on. A comment on the Southern Avenger's blog  has urged people to come here and vote against the deletion.  Not that I'm pointing fingers at anyone here for doing this... Themfromspace (talk) 22:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The comment on http://southernavenger.ccpblogs.com/2008/08/04/alexander-solzhenitsyn-1918-2008/#comments is clearly The Kaleb's. Assume good faith by his part for lack of reference materials.  Hanlon's Razor--Filthy swine (talk) 22:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep and Rename From what I observe, he seems noteworthy, but the name of the article should reflect his real name, not his pseudonym.-- King Bedford I Seek his grace  22:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I second.--Filthy swine (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To what, though? Jack Hunter(columnist), Jack Hunter(radio)--Filthy swine (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd go radio, unless we can find his middle name, which would be preferable.-- King Bedford I Seek his grace  23:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete yet another "famous for what?" YouTube "celebrity" of no importance to anyone. Guy (Help!) 22:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In the United States, Jack Hunter, provides an important voice of paleoconservative ideals, interviewing paleoconservative predidential, congressional and senatorial candidates strongly opposing those of the neoconservative philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Filthy swine (talk • contribs) 22:58, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  23:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of South Carolina-related deletion discussions.   —Filthy swine (talk) 23:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. Depth of coverage in secondary sources is insubstantial. His commentary may be entertaining, but that does not make it notable. If other local hosts each had a paragraph in the WTMA article, then this would probably warrant placement/merging there. - PennySpender1983 (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I know nothing of the other local hosts, so the writing of their articles is your burden. Personal responsibility.  I am not from Charleston, let alone South Carolina.  So if it makes no sense to write about the Southern Avenger on the WTMA article for the lack of the other hosts' notability, then it stands that a separate article must be maintained for Jack Hunter for the sake of his apparent notability. --Filthy swine (talk) 17:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete on the evidence, a minor commentator of no significance, trying to use Wikipedia for promotion. DGG (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete; minor local coverage does not notability make. Far below the threshold of WP:BIO; warrants a short paragraph at WTMA at best.  &mdash; Coren (talk) 01:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Non-trivial coverage in multiple sources independent of the subject provide plenty of verifiable information for the article. Seems notable to me. DickClarkMises (talk) 05:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep based on its current state as I look at it. The first two references, to the Post & Courier and Harvard Crimson, seem to establish notability to our standards at WP:BIO. Don't think it needs renamed either, unless it can be demonstrated that "The Southern Avenger" is not the name by which he's best known. --DeLarge (talk) 10:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Delete, lacks the "significant coverage" or "multiple independent sources" WP:BIO demands. Google News search brings up articles 2 primary sources and nothing else.--Rtphokie (talk) 12:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.