Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Sugarman 3


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Nominator expressed no formal opinion; and the only delete vote has been withdrawn. (non-admin closure) Bradjamesbrown (talk) 00:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The Sugarman 3

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

I am also nominating the following related pages as explained below:



Not my usual field. Reallyhick asked me for advice on this,and I'd think it would obviously depend on the notability of the records they make, which is unproven. But two of those records do have articles in Wikipedia, with a source for existence, but not notability. If notablity cannot be shown for them, I'd think both this and they would need to be deleted. The speedy on the band was disputed rather strongly, and it might be best to decide on the three together. Myself, I have no formal opinion, as i would think it rash to have one on a field I know almost nothing about.  DGG ( talk ) 00:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

*Delete all. I originally tagged this for speedy, after which a very contentious debate ensued with the original author. There is no evidence provided that this band meets WP:BAND in any of its 12 criteria. Only one member might be notable (and you have to have two or more), and his article is up for AfD after the original author mentioned it in the argument - I nominated it for deletion after seeing no references provided after having been tagged for such for two years. The original author has stubbornly refused to provide any references other than a brief Allmusic article, and as we all know that's simply not enough. Google tuns up only track and album listings from online stores and such. Since the band is not notable, neither are the albums, since they did not chart; the only reference on those articles is one Allmusic review. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 00:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)  Cancel this !vote. See below. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all. Wikipedia's notability guidelines for music, bands, albums and songs are pretty clear on this issue, informing that this article should not be deleted. The notability guidelines state that a band is notable if it meets at least one of their criteria, and this band meets at least 3 of them.  For example:
 * This band released 4 albums through an independent label, Daptone Records. This label also released albums for bands such as Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, whose band is also featured in Amy Winehouse's Back to Black album.
 * The Sugarman 3 band is formed by studio musicians such as Neal Sugarman, Adam Scone and Rudy Albin, among others. These session musicians have played for acts such as Robbie Williams, Amy Winehouse, Lilly Allen, along with other acts such as Ghostface Killah, Mark Ronson among others.  So criteria #6 is also met.
 * This band is a prominent, if not the leading band, of the retro-funk movement. So criteria #7 is met.
 * So, without delving any deeper than this, it becomes pretty clear that this article should not be deleted. There is a lot of crap floating around wikipedia which rightfully need to be deleted.  Yet, this isn't it. -- Mecanismo | Talk 12:59, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: Releasing X number of albums does not equal notability. The session musicians that make up this band are not notable, except maybe one of them (and his article is up for AfD right now), and at least two are required to be notable for the group to be notable. And their prominence is your opinion only, and you have stubbornly refused to provide further references from independent, reliable sources to back this up. So the three criteria you mention are not met, nor apparently are any others. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Never mind; see comments below. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Symbol keep vote.svg With several major mentions by the New York Times and many other mentions by other news sources, plus some book mentions, it is clear that this band is well known in its genre amd there is probably enough material out there to construct a decent article. Keep unequivocally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipatrol (talk • contribs) 21:58, 13 February 2010
 * Comment: I came up with the same NY Times items. Both are mere listings of performances in NYC, and listings of performances do not equate to independent coverage, such as an article specifically about the subject. (I looked for one of those, too, since the original author is apparently unwilling to do so, and came up empty on several attempts. Hey, I tried!) The Stanford Daily link came up dead, but I did a search and came up with the cache (no big deal, Google acts up like that sometimes). This is the closest that we've come to independent coverage, but with this and the brief Allmusic piece, I just don't think that is enough. For a group that is supposed to have had such an influence on their genre of music, there are precious few mentions. (By the way, the AllMusic book item is simply a duplicate of the item on the web site, or vice versa, so count that out.) - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  —  Gongshow  Talk 00:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep the band's article. I have expanded it with sources. Note that I'm not suggesting every reference contains significant coverage. However, enough of them do such that WP:GNG and criterion 1 of WP:BAND are satisfied.  Gongshow  Talk 01:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If we had these references to start with, or even after I asked the original author to provide them, I would have never pursued this in the first place. Not all the new references are applicable, but enough of them are to do the job. (BTW, how did you find these when I moved heaven and Google to fine something? Check that: I figured it out - most of the new refs are for Sugarman "Three," not "3" - D'oh!) I can't withdraw the AfD since technically I did not post it, but since I'm the main instigator, I'll ask the closing admin to do so. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 01:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah you're right, spelling out "three" was helpful for a few of the refs. Also, for obscure bands--comparatively speaking--I'll usually try several searches with a publisher's name included to see if I get lucky (e.g., "sugarman three" popmatters).  Gongshow  Talk 01:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I'll file that away in the old bag o' tricks for future use. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 20:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep All - just to add to the consensus. Gongshow has improved the artist's article very well with the sources found by everyone during this debate. Then per precedent at WP:ALBUMS if the artist is notable then that helps the album articles. This is the type of outcome that I personally like to see in an AfD discussion. D OOMSDAYER 520  (Talk|Contribs) 17:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have been working on the album articles (will add cover images soon) and found that the band is known as BOTH "The Sugarman 3" and "The Sugarman Three", with both spellings appearing on their album covers. (Also, sometimes there is no "The".) Should this be mentioned in the band article? I can't figure out which is more common; if "Sugarman Three" is more common that might necessitate a Move but who knows. Is there a funk doctor in the house who can help with the true spelling of the band's name? D OOMSDAYER 520  (Talk|Contribs) 17:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point about the band being referred to with either "3" or "Three" in the name. Even the website for the band's label uses both variations. I added a bit to the lead so both spellings are mentioned. I probably favor the "3" variation only because that's the spelling used for the band's most recent album, as well as their MySpace page, for what it's worth.  Gongshow  Talk 01:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.