Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Sundering


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. No consensus to delete, and after a WP:HEY by Sariel Xilo, a consensus to keep. (non-admin closure) Britishfinance (talk) 11:53, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The Sundering

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There is no significant coverage in reliable third party sources to write an encyclopedic article here, as best practiced in the general notability guideline. There are some WP:TRIVIALMENTIONs of this in the context of the actual notable fiction itself, but even within the fiction, it's an obscure background detail that has never been written about to be more than just a WP:PLOT detail, which is what Wikipedia articles are WP:NOT. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Forgotten Realms, where it is already covered. The only non-primary sources being used here are both just covering the same announcement of the in-universe event, and in both cases, the coverage is limited to "this is the name of an upcoming D&D event".  Searching for additional sources brings up just some brief mentions of it being the name of the event, with no in-depth coverage demonstrating notability.  It might also be useful if the Redirect were renamed, with the current disambiguation page for the term moved to this space instead.  Rorshacma (talk) 19:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. Sariel Xilo's complete revamping of the article to be about the real-world products rather than the fictional event allow this one to stand on its own.  Rorshacma (talk) 05:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Rename to The Sundering (Dungeons & Dragons) and Redirect to Forgotten Realms, while moving The Sundering (series) to this title, as the only actual article it would be the clear primary topic. The article fails GNG, as the only non-primary sources are passing mentions. Devonian Wombat (talk) 07:36, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Rename and Redirect per Devonian Wombat. Non-notable but has an alternate article that could be located here.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 15:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with Rename and Redirect per Devonian Wombat. However, I'm not sure why the The Sundering (series) article (a series of novels unrelated to the D&D Sundering novels) needs to be renamed. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed my view to Keep if the article focus is shifted from fictional plot summary to the actual books & adventures released. See comment below. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

It's a variety of different types of coverage that seems to easily pass WP:GNG. —Torchiest talkedits 01:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep with concerns about WP:BEFORE. There's plenty of significant coverage that also passes WP:SUSTAINED. The two main WP:RSes in the article are from August 2012. There are other articles spread over time:
 * "Wizards Focuses On Forgotten Realms With 'The Sundering' Event" MTV from August 2013
 * "Wizards Of The Coast Launches 'The Sundering'" Forbes August 2013
 * "Exclusive Interview on D&D: The Sundering, Part 1" ICv2 August 2013
 * "D&D's Sundering campaign becomes a cold war in Icewind Dale" io9 November 2013
 * "Chris Perkins interview: Dungeons & Dragons, The Sundering and shared worlds" Den of Geek November 2014
 * "Erin M Evans interview: Forgotten Realms, The Sundering, D&D" Den of Geek April 2015
 * Keep per above comments, or failing that at worst merge to Forgotten Realms since there are WP:RS to retain, per WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD. BOZ (talk) 03:08, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment, sources cited above are just a bunch of passing mentions and a couple of interviews, absolutely nothing that would help pass GNG. Devonian Wombat (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm also not convinced that they demonstrate sustained coverage - there were basically two time periods where several, similar articles were released - Aug-Sep 2012, when the event was announced, and then around August 2013, when the event began. The only sources above that don't fall into those two "announcement" periods is a short article a couple months later that is, itself, just another announcement about product releases, and then two creator interviews.  In addition, outside of the creator interviews, the contents of all of these articles are simply reports of Wizards of the Coast's announcements.  Rorshacma (talk) 03:54, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * keep sources are surprisingly good. Yes, fairly limited in time, but I don't think that's an issue for the GNG. Hobit (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I think there's potential in this article if the focus is on the 6 Sundering books since individual book reviews exist. These two D&D novel series articles seem like a good model on what this article could become: Transitions (novel series) & The Hunter's Blades Trilogy. Then the article could have a section (called related products or something) on the larger event the book series ties into to. Based on my research, most of the event was these 6 novels. The other parts (a weekly D&D Encounters in-store play event and the mobile game Arena of War) didn't get as much coverage but I did find reviews of some of the D&D Encounter adventures.
 * Book 1 (The Companions, by R. A. Salvatore) was nominated for Goodreads Choice Awards Best Fantasy https://www.goodreads.com/choiceawards/best-fantasy-books-2013
 * Book 2 (The Godborn, by Paul S. Kemp) https://io9.gizmodo.com/godborn-author-paul-s-kemp-discusses-antiheroes-and-wh-1402992032, https://nerdtrek.com/the-godborn-the-sundering-book-ii-written-by-paul-s-kemp/
 * Book 3 (The Adversary, by Erin Evans) http://diehardgamefan.com/2013/11/25/book-review-the-adversary-the-sundering-book-iii-dungeons-dragons/
 * Book 4 (The Reaver, by Richard Lee Byers) https://www.sfcrowsnest.info/the-reaver-the-sundering-book-iv-by-richard-lee-byers-book-review/, https://geeksofdoom.com/2014/02/04/interview-richard-lee-byers-author-reaver-sundering-book-iv
 * Book 5 (The Sentinel, by Troy Denning) http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/03/24/book-review-the-sentinel-the-sundering-book-v-dungeons-dragons/
 * Book 6 (The Herald, by Ed Greenwood) https://www.sfcrowsnest.info/the-herald-the-sundering-book-vi-by-ed-greenwood-book-review/
 * Adventure 1 (Murder in Baldur’s Gate) http://diehardgamefan.com/2013/08/30/tabletop-review-murder-in-baldurs-gate-dungeons-dragons/
 * Adventure 2 (Legacy of the Crystal Shard) http://diehardgamefan.com/2013/12/04/tabletop-review-legacy-of-the-crystal-shard-dungeons-dragons/
 * Adventure 3 (Dreams of the Red Wizards: Scourge of the Sword Coast) http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/02/06/tabletop-review-dreams-of-the-red-wizards-scourge-of-the-sword-coast-dungeons-dragons-next/
 * Adventure 4 (Dreams of the Red Wizards: Dead in Thay) http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/05/01/tabletop-review-dreams-of-the-red-wizards-dead-in-thay-dungeons-dragons-next/
 * Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I started to revamp the article away from an in-universe style and towards details of the actual event (books/adventures) but I don't have time to continue this right now. If an editor could continue fleshing out the Reception section and incorporating the sources listed by Torchiest above, that would be great. Thanks! Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. The sources found suggest that the topic is, surprisingly, notable per NFICTION/GNG. Hopefully, someone can indeed rewrite it so it is less in-universe plot fancruft and more the analysis of significance to the real world franchise etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:11, 2 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.