Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Visioner's Tale


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   '''delete. Sources, we gotta have sources.'''. - Philippe 20:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The Visioner's Tale
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Not only no google hits for title, but frgments of the first line and one middle line get nothing. Nothing even remotely similar in [http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1989&Itemid=27 The Complete Works of Geoffrey Chaucer, edited from numerous manuscripts by the Rev. Walter W. Skeat (2nd ed.) (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1899). 7 vols.], or the newer EChaucer at the University of Maine. Originally copied from an anon creation in 2005 at Simple Wikipedia. T L Miles (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 12:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. This is probably a hoax.  That it is "generally omitted from most editions of the Canterbury Tales" on account of being a fragment (my copy includes fragments; why not this one?) is an extraordinary claim, and as such requires extraordinary evidence; I see no evidence whatsoever.  The author claims that it is to be found only in academic commentaries; that's a weird claim, and certainly not supported by Google Scholar.  If I had access to better academic databases, I could be certain enough to recommend a G3 speedy, which I imagine will be the end result anyway.   Anturiaethwr  Talk  16:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll also point out that the poem is not at all typical of Chaucer's style (at least as I remember it), and I'm fairly sure he never used the word synchicity.  Anturiaethwr  Talk  18:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  13:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You can apparently hear an audio recording at of it.  Best, --  Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles  Tally-ho! 22:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * looks like somebody put the hoax over on them also. Note the copyright holder. The Council has a feedback form, but it doesnt work for me. Looking for an email address. DGG (talk) 03:56, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Redirect to the Canterbury Tales - It's not in the complete Chaucer because it's ascribed to Chaucer and it's a palimpsest. Authorship is dubious, but someone might look for it. The Tales article should mention it. Also "taken in"? Reed College. No, he probably didn't use the word synchicity. But writing in Middle English -- as one of the first authors of serious literature to use English -- a few loan words from French or Latin would be expected, so he might have used synchicité. Found only in academic commentaries is not a weird claim, most Bibles gloss over (or ignore) varient texts. As it stands, though, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot behind this article (probably a page in someone's Lit 411 text) and this is clearly not a notable topic, redirect it. If we come up with something solid, we can add it to the Tales article. If a deeper look (off-line: yes, actual dead trees, people) finds nothing, kill the redirect. Otherwise, we're assuming it's a fairly detailed and subtle hoax, assembled with a fair deal of care and mistakenly deposited in Simple. Seems unlikely. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 19:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. Can you provide a source ascribing it to Chaucer?  I can't find even one, apart from the two pages linked to above, neither of which mentions it beyond linking to the same audio file hosted on a non-existent site.  (Of course, if there were more than that [for instance, a working link to the file], either would pass muster for me.)
 * 2. My point about "synchicity" is that the only definition I can find for it (or for "synchicité") is computer-related, and doesn't make any sense in Chaucer.  Does it have some other meaning?
 * 3. I see your point about the "found only in academic commentaries" claim, but I'd like to see (or at least hear of) such a commentary.  I'm having no luck finding one.
 * 4. Hoaxes sometimes are quite detailed and careful; see the AfD on the orange-bellied pike, which was a very well-written and comprehensive article about a fish that didn't exist.
 * In short, I'm perfectly willing to accept that this poem exists--if given some evidence other than two links to a non-existent audio file.  Anturiaethwr  Talk  20:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete first, on internal evidence--chaucer's poetry--all of it--rhymes. This does not. The general imagery and the theme is totally wrong for his period & unparalleled in his work. The language is of course wrong--but this is evaded in the article by calling it a modern reconstruction. The name of the "Danish scholar" is not provided. The original text is not referred to. Palpinsets are overwritten ancient manuscripts--for Chaucer's time this is about a millennium anachronistic. As for external evidence, the word "visioner" in any form does not appear in the Middle English Dictionary; there is no entry forthis in MLA Bibliography or in several other bibliographies I've checked, and finally--thereis one use of the word "VISIONER" in any bibliography of literature--it happens to be the use of the German word in a title of a Danish article on the nazis. That explains the Danish connection. DGG (talk) 20:07, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I missed the part about "visioner" because it's in Wiktionary, but the IP that put it there is also the IP that created the original Simple English article. Perhaps someone over there should look into this matter as well.   Anturiaethwr  Talk  21:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I haven't found a specific reference to this text and realize this article will go away soon. That said: Yes, Chaucer's poetry rhymes: in Middle English. In Modern English? Most texts go out of their way to ensure it does, but not all. The theme is all wrong? Well, that's not my field, that's your opinion. "Palpinsets are overwritten ancient manuscripts"? Strictly speaking, a palimpsest is from parchment that has been scraped and reused. In more ordinary usage, it can be virtually anything where an original work is hidden under a final work: the original building in an evolved structure, seemingly meaningless sections in current oaths, erased illustrations in hand copied texts, paintings under paintings, etc. Ones one such use is the claimed text of "Judas Iscariot's Tale" in the Pardoner's Tale. Visioner is from a "German word in a title of a Danish article on the nazis"? Interesting speculation. "Visioner" is an otherwise unknown word? Sometimes that happens in translation: you're forced to be a bit creative. Again, Chaucer isn't my area, but I had a student from Uruguay who was puzzled by more than a few "words" from an article that had been translated from German. Let's stick to solid reasoning on this one: we have no reliable sources, so we delete it. All the rest is speculation on top of speculation. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 17:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.