Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The pogroms in Istanbul

 This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was Deleting with prejudice. I am dismayed at the sockpuppetry occuring here, and I must express my thanks to those of you who watched out for it and pointed it out when necessary. You make our jobs so much easier. --Golbez 22:11, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

The pogroms in Istanbul
Although I am unfamiliar with the details of the Cyprus dispute, this article seems to be a POV attack designed to further the views of User:Argyrosargyrou, It is in a similar vein as Hellenic Holocaust and Hellenic Genocide, all created by this user and subsequently deleted. Hence, despite my lack of familiarity with the subject, I nominated this page for deletion. Scimitar 21:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Comments by Scimitar indicate that the nomination of this page for deletion is part of an attempt to peruse a Personal vendetta against me. Therefore the nomination should be declared invalid. --Argyrosargyrou 22:03, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * This page has become nothing more than a series of PERSONAL ATTACKS against me in violation of Wikipedia rules. The most recent attack is by ChrisO who has restored to using threats to prevent me from removing the repeated personal attacks. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Argyrosargyrou&diff=0&oldid=15140825) --Argyrosargyrou 22:25, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * For the record, I warned Argyrosargyrou not to delete other users' comments on this VfD. He ignored the warning so has been blocked for 24 hrs for common vandalism. -- ChrisO 22:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think he did. Your warning is time stamped 22:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC) and his last revert was at 22:17, 13 Jun 2005 and that was before the warning was given. He did nothing wrong. I believe you banned him out of your own personal prejudice, to prevent him from contributing to the discussion.--SaintJerome 00:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * created this ID today, the first edit was to the Cyprus dispute page, where they made the exact same idiosyncratic edits that Argyrosargyrou makes. A possible sock puppet.  RickK 00:58, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm reverting. You, of all people, have no right to claim someone is 'personally attacking' you after edits like this actual personal attacks. I invite you to read the actual policies, and request that you cease vandalising this page, and others user pages. --Kiand 22:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh, STOP VANDALISING this page. There is nothing here that is classed as a 'personal attack' in any official or even not-yet official policy. --Kiand 22:10, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I would like to ask impartial observors to review evidence and vote please, as User:Argyrosargyrou has claimed I am pursuing a personal vendetta. If anyone other than User:Argyrosargyrou wishes to defend this article, I remain open to change my vote. --Scimitar 22:11, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Votes to delete

 * Delete. --Kiand 21:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * User not impartial. Vote should not be counted. See Kiand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kiand#RfA_on_Argyrosargyrou --TheEmpire 17:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And how, under any circumstances, being asked to join an RfAr, and NOT doing so, make me impartial? Explain that one first. --Kiand 18:03, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Argyros' sockpuppet? Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. Yet another episode in Argyrosargyrou's campaign to push extreme POVs into Wikipedia articles. -- ChrisO 21:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This vote by ChrisO should not be counted since there is evidence to prove that ChrisO is pursuing a personal vendetta against Argyrosargyrou, including deliberately preventing that user from contributing.--Atriades 17:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppet? (note the use of the term "personal vendetta") Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete, more Argyrosargyroucruft. RickK 22:12, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * This vote from RickK should not be counted since there is evidence to prove that RickK is pursuing a personal vendetta against Argyrosargyrou, including deliberately preventing that user from contributing. Evidence of RickK's conspiracy against Argyrosargyrou can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scimitar#RfA_on_Argyrosargyrou


 * This proves that the only reason Scimitar nominated this page for an RfD is because RickK influenced him beforehand by slandering Argyrosargyrou. More evidecen of the conspiricy to slander Argyrosargyrou can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Scimitar#Argyrosargyrou and on SaintJerome's talk page.--Atriades 17:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Would this perhaps be a sockpuppet? Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. I highly recommend that anyone considering a 'keep' vote here, please read the current request for arbitration first. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd  22:28, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Why do people feel the need to fight the Cyprus dispute in the Wikipedia? Can't they just armwrestle for it or something? --Xcali 22:36, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete for being unencyclopedic. Sigh, deep sigh... Calling it "pogroms" is as out of place as talking about "Turkish Cypriot Genocide". There were unrests, places were destroyed, but this is only good for a newspaper article - not an encyclopedia entry. Argyro, pursue your rants on internet pages you own. - Snchduer 23:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The vote by Snchduer should not be counted either because he is involved in a content dispute with Argyrosargyrou over the Cyprus dispute page. He is not voting on the content of this pages and is not even willing to discuss the page civilly, but is voting out of prejudice against Argyrosargyrou.--Atriades 17:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why should that prevent my vote from being counted? Argyro, stop sockpuppeting and read the rules on which votes are counted first. - Snchduer 18:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Argyros' sockpuppet? Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete, irredeemable POV. --Angr/undefined 07:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Mixed feelings. The topic in itself may be Wikipedia-worthy, but definitely not with this title and this extremely POV content. In any other case, I would probably have voted keep but cleanup, but in this case, that would take so much time, and in the meantime the horrible content of this article would be able to do its work (whatever "doing its work" may be). Therefore: delete. Aecis 22:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC) (@Argyros: let me spare you the effort of having to come up with how I could be pro-Turkish: I'm from the Netherlands, and during the last Eurovision Song Contest, we gave 12 points to Turkey, 10 to Greece and none to Cyprus. This clearly demonstrates how unbelievably biased I am ;))
 * Delete. Sigh... what's taking the RfA so long? Feco 03:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The vote by Feco should not be counted either since he is involved in a content dispute with Argyrosargyrou over the Cyprus dispute page and over the Hellenic Genocide page. Feco's voted is not against this page but against Argyrosargyrou --Atriades 17:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Give it up, Argyros. It won't work. Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. Yet another POV fork by Argyrosargyrou in his personal Wikipedia crusade. Sarg 10:45, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete More of the usual. --E.A 10:48, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The vote by E.A should not be counted since he is involved in a content dispute with Argyrosargyrou over the Cyprus dispute page as well and over various other Greco-Turkish issues. --Atriades 17:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh dear, Argyros again... Aecis 22:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. --Kbdank71 19:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete as POV fork, and also because of the painful sockpuppetry below. --TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:10, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is ridiculous. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:54, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete, POV fork. Now, under what grounds should my vote not be counted? --Carnildo 20:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The vote by Carnildo should not be counted as his user name includes the letter "C", which is not found in the Greek alphabet, clearly showing anti-Greek bias. ;-) -- ChrisO 22:56, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. Wikipedia is not a political platform. Extreme POV warriors should go off and write their own encyclopedias. func (talk) 00:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete, obviously. Radiant_ &gt;|&lt; 09:19, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Most of the above votes for deletion are personal abuse and should be disconunted. I doubt that any of these voters have actually read the page in question. No one has pointed out anything that might factually inaccurate in the article let alone proven it to be nor have they even attempted to discus its contents, so I take that no one actually objects to the subject mater of the page at all. Obvious campaigning has taken place for votes for deletion as noted by other people, and these votes were cast because of unfounded slanders against its contributor. The discussion below which is all directed against the same person proves that. The above votes should be discounted and the entire RfD should be thrown out. If so-called sockpuppets are not allowed then neither are people ganging up against someone else, they are sockpuppets just as much. Sockpuppets of ChrisO and Kiand.--HeavensDoor 23:44, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm a sockpuppet of myself. Oh, by the way, ChrisO and Kiand are bribing me with a Ferrari to ensure that I vote delete. Sarg 11:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I said 'red fiat made car'. Never said Ferrari. --Kiand 12:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Awww... Only Nazi holocaust deniers use red fiat made cars! Sarg 12:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I have never, ever used a sockpuppet on the Wikipedia. Considering I have a totally static IP, it would be isntantly detectable. However, its clear that all the Keep votes are from the one person.
 * Also, I have read the article. Theres some MAJOR problems with it. Its completely and utterly hopeless unsavable POV. Its a huge mainly unwikified text dump from a Public Domain source and doens't come close to meeting the MoS. Its very poorly referenced - an autobiography or two, and a lot of redlinked books. And its by an author who is likely to getting banned by RfAr, meaning that their edits will all be reverted anyway. And thats just the start of reasons why it doesn't deserve to be in the Wikipedia.
 * I couldn't care less about what the article covers - its not a peice of history that interests me. But Wikipedia is not a soapbox, so it has to go. --Kiand 23:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I've never read so much nonsense that borders on holocaust denial in my life. Why don't you tell me that the stories of the Jews who were deported from the Europeans cities the NAZI's occupied should be banned from Wikipedia because they are too controversial. Why don't you actually read the books that are linked to and vist the web pages on the issues. It was PROVEN in a Turkish court that the Turkish government was responsible for the pogroms in Istanbul when the officials responsible were put on trial. How can you claim that something is poorly reference when you have not even read the references. Is the US Congress, House Concurrent Resolution 148, September 9, 1997 also a poor reference ? Have you visited http://www.hellenicgenocide.org/quotes/photos-cons-cem1.html which contains photographs of the destruction of Greek Churches and Greek owned property in Constantinople in 1955 and pictures of the Turkish mobs ? Are you telling me that "The Economist" which is quoted is not a good enough source.


 * And as for the RfAr its a complete joke as has already been pointed out. Arbitration what arbitration ? Its nothing more than a gang of your and ChrisO's sockpuppets ganging up against one person because he's challenged their one sided point of view and he knows about the issues that he is talking about better than them or you and that's what you and they don't like.--HeavensDoor 00:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It's sad, Argyros, that you have to rape the Holocaust and its millions of victims just to get your lousy point across. This just shows how worthless you are, and how right the RfAr is. Aecis 09:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Votes to keep

 * Speedy Keep Attempt at political Censorship of historically proven facts --Argyrosargyrou 21:15, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Article author, on WP:RfAr --Kiand 21:28, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * With respect, it is nothing of the kind. I explained my reasons at the beginning, and if you were more reasonable and less unilateral, I would never have put it up for deletion. (Incidentally, calling me a holocaust denier on my user page simply convinces me that this was the correct path to take). --Scimitar 21:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't waste your effort in trying to convince him this is not political censorship, Scimitar. It just won't work. Let him believe what he wants to believe. Convincing the Great Wall of China to do the moonwalk is easier than convincing Argyros. Aecis 11:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep As a Christian I have known the history of the anti-Greek pogroms in Istanbul for a very long time, ever since I learned about Turkey's closure of the Halki Theological School in 1971. I see nothing in this page that is not historically accurate, biasd or unfair and I believe that certain users are only voting to delete this page because of unfounded prejudice against the person who created it, while I know that others, from what they have said on their talk pages are colluding with each other in order to peruse a pro-Turkish agenda. --SaintJerome 00:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Users second edit outside of his own user space. --Kiand 00:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep Wikipedia rules are being used and twisted to whitewash history and prevent people with a knowledge of these events from contruibuting and censor their contributions. The events described in this page are no different to events that took place during the Jewish Holocaust or the Rwandan Genocide, and denials of those events in history would never be allowed so why deny the Pogroms against the Greeks of Istanbul.
 * Unsigned vote by User:64.76.83.118, first contrib., probable sock-puppet. --Kiand 21:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's an open proxy in Colombia. -- ChrisO 07:06, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Don't you suppose that the unsigned voter you are insulting might have been someone who was genuinely looking for something about the pogroms and after finding the information that he was looking for decided to vote to keep the page ? Even if he wasn't I was and I do not appreciate your attempt at censorship of information which I found extremely useful. I am disgusted with the way that this page was nominated for deltion based on personal prejudice and a lack of knowledge of the events. These historical events deserve to be recorded so that people can learn from them so that they can never happen again.--Jagrafes 21:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Users first contribution, probable sock-puppet. --Kiand 21:52, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep My family were deported from Constantinople in 1964 so I can testify to you that this article is accurate. I resent that Kiand and others are trying to discardit other people who voted because they do not agree with their opinions. Isn't this an abuse of the rules ? How much are you getting paid by Turkey to deny this act of ethnic-cleansing ?
 * Sigh. New user, first contribution. Probable sockpuppet. --Kiand 22:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep This article is no more POV than any article on the crimes against humanity perpetrated during the NAZI hollcaust. The RfD on this page is an attempt at holocaust denial.--JohnChaucer 22:47, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Users first edit. This user is an -obvious- sock-puppet of User:Argyrosargyrou, as he has all the same terminology and hysterical use of NAZI and holocaust denier--Kiand 22:48, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Why are you so desperate to deny that tens of thousands of indigenous Greeks were deported from Istanbul after the Turkish state organised pogroms against them ? Why do you have to accuse everyone who vote to keep this page of being a sock puppet ? Are you ashamed of your nations guilt. I'm assuming that everyone who voted to delete this page is Turkish of course, after all you think everyone who has voted to keep this page is a sock puppet. I suppose you are going to call me one now.--NeilKinnock 22:59, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Because you are. Users first edit, probably sock puppet. Oh, and I'm Irish; not Turkish. --Kiand 23:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Could someone please move the sockpuppets' reactions to a separate section of this page, so they don't obscure the equation, as it were. (I won't do it, because I'm off to bed :-)) Aecis 23:07, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep No valid reason for deletion. No attempt was made to discusses this article before it was nominated. This smacks of censorship. Kiand if you don't agree with the content of the article then discuss the point you do not agree with like a civilised human being, and Aecis stop trying to rig this vote. --Enforcer2 23:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sock. One edit. Come on, you KNOW the admins doing the count up are going to drop all these votes, you'll go to VFUD where its long-term users only, and get completely slaughtered with no support. Just give it up. --Kiand 23:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And how would I be rigging this vote? Are you man enough to prove your baseless accusations? Aecis 11:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The pogroms in Istanbul did happen ! --TheHolyGrail 23:34, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sock. 1 edit. --Kiand 23:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep I vote strongly to keep this page. There were Turkish state organised pogroms in Constantinople in 1955 which resulted in most of the Greek, Armenian and Jewish population being forced to leave the city. If that was not enough in the 1960's Turkey forcibly deported the Greek population.--MaxPlank 16:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppet - 1 edit. -- ChrisO 17:01, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep This RfD was never about the issue of the Pogroms in Istanbul but about a personal vendetta being pursued against Argyrosargyrou by E.A, Snchduer, ChrisO, RickK, Feco, and Scimitar.--Atriades 17:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Users 3rd edit, not edited any other pages than this VfD. --Kiand 17:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sounds like Argy, votes like Argy . . . --Scimitar 18:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Isn't a Scimitar a Turkish sword ? I would say that Scimitar who nominated this page is connected with Turkey in some way. Obvious anti-Greek campaign on Wikipedia by an organised group of Turkish historical revisionists, if you ask me. --TheDogsDinner 17:27, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Users second edit. --Kiand 17:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a catchall for a host of Asian, Indian, turkish, and fictional swords, actually. But, on the basis of that compelling evidence, I feel the need to offer some of my own. Your only edits ever, are on this page.  Why is that, exactly? --Scimitar 18:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The page on the pogroms is factually accurate and should be kept. --TheEmpire 17:52, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Guess what... Sarg 17:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 3 edits, all to this VfD. --Kiand 17:55, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep The pogroms occurred and tens of thousands of indigenous Greeks were ethnically cleansed by the Turkish government.--HeavensDoor 23:27, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sigh... Aecis 23:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * May as well keep up my tradion, eh?. One edit, sockpuppet. --Kiand 23:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Did the Turkish government use a proper ethnic soap for the cleansing? --Carnildo 23:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh no! Now Argy's puppets will claim we used humour and that should get our votes discounted!! Because only HOLOCAUST DENYING NAZI's use humour, right? --Kiand 23:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Just take a look at the evidence for a moment and judge this page ON ITS CONTENTS ALONE


 * George Horton; "The Blight of Asia" (Indianapolis: Bobb and Merryl, 1925)
 * Leonidas Koumakis; "The Miracle" (1993)
 * Marjorie Housepian Dobkin; "Smyrna 1922 the Destruction of a City"
 * Henry Morgenthau; "I was sent to Athens"
 * Edward Hale Bierstadt; "The Great Betrayal"
 * Thea Halo; "Not Even My Name" (May 2000 Picador USA/St. Martin's Press)
 * Speros Vryonis, Jr.; The Mechanism of Catastrophe: The Turkish Pogrom of September 6-7, 1955, and the Destruction of the Greek Community of Istanbul, (2005)
 * Christos P. Ioannides; In Turkey's image: The transformation of occupied Cyprus into a Turkish province, (New Rochelle, NY: Caratzas, 1991)
 * Tessa Hofmann (HG); Verfolgung, Vertreibung und Vernichtung der Christen im Osmanischen Reich 1912-1922, Münster: LIT Verlag, 2004
 * The Asia Minor Holocaust of 1922 - Four articles from the New York Times--Yorik 17:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Another night, another round of sockpuppets. Just give it up, dammit!
 * Two edits, definate sockpuppet. --Kiand 17:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If one checks list of users and admins here, then it will be possible to see that many wikipedians are now not engaged in writing the artickles, not even participating in editing wars, but mostly spend their days voting for page deletion(or keeping). WonderfulGabrichidze 17:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. If this resourse wants to stay an encyclopedia and not degenerate in one of the numerous opinion forums then this attempts to delete the artickles regarding the historic facts should stop(however please feel free to edit the artickle and discuss changes at the talk page). I prefer to see a vanity pages once in while (which will be abandoned any way) instead of seeing a useful artickles about historic events being constantly marked with a deletion tags only because they hurt someones pariotic feelings(or other feelings does not matter). This deletionism should stop.
 * If you want to prevent Wikipedia from degenerating into an opinion forum, then it's these übernationalistic rants that have to stop, not the attempts to delete them. Edits to articles by Argyrosargyrou have been attempted, but they have only led to immediate reverts by Argyrosargyrou or one of his sockpuppets, followed by seemingly incessant back-and-forth revert wars. Argyrosargyrou will not discuss his edits, and he is not willing to compromise or seek a consensus. He will only accept his way, with only the wording he chooses, and the words he chooses are not encyclopedic at all. And in those cases, I think it's better not to have an article at all, than to have an unencyclopedic, sometimes factually incorrect, one-sided POV rant by perhaps one of Wikipedia's biggest trolls. Aecis 23:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages.  Please do not edit this page .