Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thodoris Moschonas (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. -- Cirt (talk) 00:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Thodoris Moschonas
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

A candidate for speedy G4, but the nom was declined, even though this player still fails WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 10:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 10:56, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 'KEEP'. He doesn't just easily surpass WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL he clobbers it down much like The Thing of the Fantastic 4 would. This guy is the goalkeeper for one of the top SuperLeague teams in Greece. It doesn't get any more notable than this in Greece. In fact, it doesn't get anymore notable than this in Europe considering that AEK regularly clobbers international teams. How could anybody nominate this goalkeeper? He signed a professional goalkeeper's contract with AEK when he was only 18 years old. He may be baby-faced but he is a kickass goalkeeper.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 12:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Real kickass. from 1st (and most recent dated) ref (translation)"The young goalkeeper is theoretically fourth in order of priority in the group behind Saha, Arampatzis and Lukacs..."-- Club Oranje T 06:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * At the very least, he meets the Association Football element of WP:ATHLETE because he has played an international game as a Youth player whilst on a professional contract "at the highest level". And in my opinion he meets WP:GNG too.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 12:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. He is contracted to Superleague Greece club AEK, but according to both the article and the player's profile on AEK's website, he has no first-team competitive appearances. Therefore he fails WP:NFOOTBALL, which requires a player to play in fully-professional competition; having a pro contract with a big club isn't enough. No-one has yet shown evidence of enough non-routine media coverage to get him through WP:GNG. Struway2 (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Disagree. He is a goalkeeper in a team that plays internationally (i.e. not just domestically). He meets WP:GNG because he has had a full-on interview on radio in Greece (and the interview has been published). See first reference.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 13:51, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The notability of the team is not in question, but Mr Moschonas hasn't yet played for it. That first reference now added to the article proves that he has been noticed by the media, but a short interview when a big-club's youngster moves up to the first-team squad is pretty routine. The sixth has one sentence saying he signed his first pro contract. The other four are stats pages or squad lists showing he's a member of the club's squad but hasn't appeared for the team, which the link to the AEK website already indicated and AFAIK no-one doubted. Routine sports coverage doesn't get a youngster through the GNG. Struway2 (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Added second interview. He is a current member of the squad. He has played for the AEK's junior team and there are many articles about that too (but have not added any of those yet).  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. There was also another AfD, in January 2011 at Articles for deletion/Theodoros Moschonas, which resulted in speedy deletion. As far as I know, nothing has changed since then. Struway2 (talk) 13:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He was AfD'd in July 2010 and he was interviewed on radio and the interview was published in July 2010.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 13:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.    Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 14:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions.    Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 14:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, being contract to and having actually made an appearance for a club a two different things. He fails WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG. Recreate if and when he makes his debut for AEK or anyone else at a fully-professional level of football. --Jimbo[online] 15:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Disagree. He doesn't fail WP:GNG have added two references with interviews of Moschonas to the article. And there are many articles where he is mentioned and he appears on the list of every recent AEK Super League game. He meets WP:GNG and he is a current member of the squad. Moreover, he was a member of the National Youth squad that played against Germany in February 2009 (which means that he meets the Association Football element of WP:ATHLETE because he has played an international game as a Youth player whilst on a professional contract "at the highest level").  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:51, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete we've done him before and nothing has changed, still has achieved nothing of particular note. Started with AEK in 2007. AfD'd in July 2010 as a footballer with 0 appearances senior pro, no senior international appearances, only youth, thereby not played at a notable level by Wikipedia standards. Still has not played at the required level. Still has 0 appearances for AEK, still has not played senior professional football, still has not played senior international football, youth caps still do not confer notability. Coverage is pretty standard general sports coverage. The previously deleted article also presumably claimed he played for AEK otherwise it had no claim to fame and would likely have been A7'd rather than discussed, so I fail to see the rationale behind the speedy declination - but then, I'm not looking at the previous article. -- Club Oranje T 07:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He meets the Association Football element of WP:ATHLETE because he has played an international game as a Youth player whilst on a professional contract "at the highest level". And in my opinion he meets WP:GNG too.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 12:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment re sports notability.
 * The general criterion at WP:NSPORT requires a sportsperson to "have participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level such as the Olympics". International football at youth level is not and never has been considered "competition at the highest level".
 * To satisfy the association football-specific criteria, a player must either (1) have played in "any officially sanctioned senior international competition" (my bolding); or (2) have "appeared ... in a fully-professional league".
 * On (1), youth internationals are by definition not senior international competition;
 * On (2), the many statistical pages cited in Mr Moschonas' article agree that he has not yet appeared in a fully-professional league.
 * The note below those two statements at WP:NFOOTBALL says explicitly: "A player who signs for a domestic team but has not played in any games is not deemed to have participated in a competition, and is therefore not generally regarded as being notable. Youth players are not notable unless they satisfy one of the statements above, or if they can be shown to meet the wider requirements of WP:GNG." (again, my highlighting).
 * Mr Moschonas clearly doesn't yet meet the football notability guideline. Struway2 (talk) 13:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So there are no arguments that he does not meet WP:GNG.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 14:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete - As stated above, he very clearly fails WP:NSPORT. The references all appear to be routine sports journalism and are therefore insufficient for WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You are ignoring two media interviews which clearly meet WP:GNG.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 19:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG. Coverage is routine. Argyle 4 Life  talk  06:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.