Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Monarch


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to 1963 Mexican Grand Prix. — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 14:49, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Monarch

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Delete Race car driver who entered but withdrew (what that means isn't entirely clear) from a single Formula 1 race in 1963. Fails WP:GNG and in a sense fails WP:V. Some Internet forums discuss him but the central theme is always that there's a complete absence of reliable coverage on the guy. This article says he was born circa 1943 while on other wikis, F1 databases are cited and he's said to have been born in 1912 and have died in 1964. Of course that doesn't make sense: you don't enter your first F1 race at 51 years old but that's what you get for trying to write an article without any hint of a reliable source. One possibility is to delete but redirect to either 1963 Mexican Grand Prix or List of Formula One drivers. Pichpich (talk) 19:57, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Redirect to List of Formula One drivers - The other F1 databases copied older versions of this article which gave the 1912-1964 dates, which are obviously wrong. That's what people get from taking a census entry for a guy with the same name and making an uneducated guess that it's the same guy. I have corresponded with people who knew him after 1964, and we most certainly not in his 50s at that time. The later approximate birthdate, which I added, is correct, but how you'd source it, I don't know. There is a theory that Monarch was born in 1945, which would make him the youngest ever driver to have an entry accepted for a Formula One race and inherently notable. The fact that he ultimately did not take part would not affect that record, as a place on the entry list always seems to count in F1 record terms. It's a matter of establishing the facts via birth/death records etc, and the facts concerning what he did or didn't do at the event itself.


 * Until that is done, I'd suggest a redirect to the List of Formula One drivers article. Some kind of redirect is essential as this guy is a sort of cult figure in F1 terms, and people will definitely look for him on Wikipedia. He took part in other races, and certainly had a more extensive motor racing career - it's a matter of uncovering it, which is not always easy. It will probably surface at some point, but as I said in my original talk page comment in 2008, we can't really prove his notability till then. A redirect would also preserve the very useful information on the talk page. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Yunshui 雲&zwj;水 11:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment The debate has been relisted and I hope others can give their input but if this doesn't happen I'd be fine with a redirect. Bretonbanquet's thorough explanations are pretty convincing. Pichpich (talk) 13:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Redirect to 1963 Mexican Grand Prix. Wikipedian research has found some useful information on him, but none is WP:V and if true, does not indicate any notability as it appears that he had never raced a Formula One car and that possibly his inclusion on the Mexican Grand Prix entry list was a mistake or a case of confusion. (ie it's apparently possible he entered a support race but was shown as being entered in the grand prix, when he failed to appear he was simply listed as withdrawn from the grand prix). -Drdisque (talk) 20:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Redirect/merge to 1963 Mexican Grand Prix. - seems a more useful target than List of Formula One drivers. I think the case for redirecting as opposed to deleting has been well made by the other commenters.  W a g g e r s  TALK  10:21, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.