Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Throes of Sanity


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Fails WP:BAND - notability is clearly not established in WP:RS ( talk→  BWilkins   ←track ) 10:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Throes of Sanity

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Non-notable band lacking GHits and GNEWS of substance. Appears to fail WP:BAND.  ttonyb (talk) 23:11, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - This talk page is in response to the proposed deletion of page Throes of Sanity. I have reviewed the notability requirements for Wikipedia regarding musical groups and ensembles and believe that Throes of Sanity meets the criteria for inclusion and provides substance to the world community regarding progressive heavy metal bands.  Please consider that this type of music is not mainstreme.  It is difficult to gain notariety in this sub-culture of music.  One only needs to google the band's name to see that they have received substantial notariety in the US, Europe (special mention in Germany), Japan, the Czec Republic and other countries throughout the world.  The sources and links provided in the Throes of Sanity page specifically meet the first WP:BAND criteria:


 * "1. Has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician or ensemble itself and reliable".


 * After searching Google of the band and reviewing the links in the page, Throes of Sanity has been provided a plethora of online versions of print media recongnition throughout the years. Further, as written in the page, Throes of Sanity received regular rotation on KISW's Metal Shop and was interviewed for a specific segment that lasted more than one-half hour including the specific highlighting of songs from their album, "The Upheaval".  KISW is the largest rock radio station in the Seattle area.  Therefore, Throes of Sanity meets criteria 12 of WP:BAND criteria:


 * "12. Has been the subject of a half-hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network."


 * Throes of Sanity is also scheduled to go on tour to play the Swordbrothers Festival IX in Andernach, Germany with the other progressive metal bands such as Cloven Hoof, Cage and Paragon, who are similar to Throes of Sanity also have pages on Wikipedia.


 * Those of us who continue to support progressive heavy metal music really understand the importance that Throes of Sanity plays in this genre of music which is why I included them in Wikipedia. I have made substantial changes to the page to be sure it meets the Wikipedia standards and will also continue to improve the page over time as I am sure other Wiki editors will do if given the chance! Metalmusicscene (talk) 22:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – Unfortunately the references are not "non-trivial" in nature and some do not meet the criteria in reliable sources. I do not see any indication the band meets criteria #12.  Rotation on and having been interviewed for a segment of a local radio show is not the same as being the "subject of a half-hour or longer broadcast across a national radio or TV network."


 * It may well be that the group is significant; however, Wikipedia is not based on truth, but rather verifiability.   ttonyb  (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - I respectfully disagree that Throes of Sanity does not meet the criteria enumerated in WP:BAND; specifically sections 1 and 12. I also disagree that the sources cited in the Throes of Sanity article are not reliable sources. What appears to be occurring is the application of a standard for reliable sources that simply does not exist or exists in a different way regarding the genre being described.


 * First, there are several Google pages containing a plethora of articles specifically discussing the significance of the band. These sources are the critics and listeners of the band. How much more reliable can those sources be? The articles certainly are non trivial "written online versions of print media" which specifically qualifies the band for notability pursuant to Wikipedia guidelines (regarding the non triviality of the print media, please read each article the band has sourced in the Throes of Sanity page (NME.com[1], Progressive World.net[2], Last.fm[3], Forgotten-Scroll[4], Rapid4me.com[5], Metal to Infinity[6] and Metal Melts the Ice[7]) to understand the significance the band has in the heavy metal community.  The list in the article is by no means exhaustive but verifieds and demonstrates the significance that Throes of Sanity has in the heavy metal/progressive metal community.  The reader of the articles takes away nothing less than Throes of Sanity epidimizes true progressive metal.


 * Also, as indicated in the article, the band has noteworthy members including former member Pavel Konvalinka who is probably one of the best rock and heavy metal percussionists in the world. The influece the band has had in the heavy metal community is undeniable as reflected in the huge presence on the internet.


 * The band was specifically featured on KISW's Metal Shop, which is an international radio station when considering the fact they broadcast live on the internet. The band specifically was the subject of and was featured on Metal Shop in which each memeber was interviewed and Metal Shop played 4 songs from the CD.  That specifically meets the criteria of WP:BAND 12 as enumerated in Wikipedia. Metalmusicscene (talk) 01:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – Let's take this one at a time. First of all there is not a plethora of GHits. There are only 123 Ghits - go to the last page of the search and take a look at the count there, not on the first page.  In addition, there are zero GNEWS (news) hits listed on Google.  The Google articles are primarily trivial mentions and blog type entries, and yes, I have read the articles.  There are a couple of album reviews, but they are about the album, not specifically about the band.


 * Pavel Konvalinka's membership in the band does not meet any criteria in WP:BAND to support the article, so therefore it is irrelevant to this discussion. Please note that if he was a current member of the band the conclusion would be different.


 * There is nothing in the article that adequately supports {per Wikipedia guidelines) that the band has had influence in the heavy metal community. Are there articles that support this, have they won significant awards.  Have they had national airplay?


 * The airplay on KISW's Metal Shop is not a broadcast across a national radio or TV network. The internet is not a radio network or TV network.  Assumming such would be like saying someone is an international journalist because they have a internet based blog.  Sorry, but not even close.


 * I would suggest instead of trying to justify the article as it stands, you improve the references in the article. That will get you a lot farther in supporting the article.   ttonyb  (talk) 01:55, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - I completely agree with your comment that the article can be improved (like most all articles on Wikipedia) and believe there are numerous reliable sources evidencing Throes of Sanity meets the criteria for notability. I do believe that if given the chance, the Wikipedia community who adores progressive metal (and we are out there) will focus their energy on improving the references in the article over time.


 * Throes of Sanity definitely has its place in the progressive metal community as indicated in the internet articles. Regarding the 123 Google hits, plethora has been defined on Wiktionary as "an excessive amount or number; an abundance". I believe that the number of hits on Google justifies the use of the term plethora.


 * Also, there is enough notariety in the Google hits warranting Throes of Sanity on Wikipedia. There is nothing in WP:BAND criteria that provides a specific type of written online version of print media is required to meet the first element of WP:BAND.  The issue is notability and it is apparent from the source reviews that Throes of Sanity has notability.  The Google articles are not just about the album, and it is nearly impossible to write about an album without writing about the band who wrote the album.  I also disagree with your characterization of how Throes of Sanity has influenced the progressive metal community which was driven underground for the most part after the Grunge scene took over in the mid 1990s.  Once again, progressive metal/heavy metal/power metal is not mainstreme like hip hop and pop.  This should be considered when determining notability for the specific genre.


 * Regarding the analogy that a major radio station such as KISW in Seattle who broadcasts live over the internet (KISW is owned by Entercom, which is one of the five largest radio broadcasting companies in the United States, with a nationwide portfolio of 110 stations in 23 markets, including San Francisco, Boston, Seattle, Denver, Portland, Sacramento and Kansas City) is comparable to an internet based blog is a little disingenuous. Once again, however, I will focus my engerty on improving the article.  --Metalmusicscene (talk) 03:17, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – Please follow the format for comments. I should not have to do this for you. Thanks... Again, one at a time.  The community has 7 days to improve the article before it would be deleted.  As I indicated above, the specific type of support for articles is in reliable sources please read the article and feel free to let me know if you have any questions.  You are missing the point about notability, there is "real-world" notability and Wikipedia notability.  Meeting "real-world" notability is not criteria for Wikipedia notability. Wikipedia notability is defined for bands in WP:BAND.  Again, as I indicated above the group may be significant; however, Wikipedia is not based on truth, but rather  verifiability.  Without reliable sources the article is not  verifiable. Without reliable sources the article cannot meet the criteria in WP:BAND and therefore cannot achieve Wikipedia based notability.  You are missing the point with regards to the KISW broadcast, it was not broadcast on the Entercom network, therefore it was not broadcast across a national radio or TV network.  It was only broadcast in one market.  ttonyb  (talk) 03:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – Sorry about the formatting.  I have read the reliable sources article and do believe that the written online print media for Throes of Sanity by the progressive metal community found in the original article qualify as reliable source material which is verifiable. Please review the Wikipedia articles for Cage, Cloven Hoof and Paragon.  Those heavy metal bands are similar to Throes of Sanity but have cited less source material than the current article being reviewed for deletion.  Those are the same bands that Throes of Sanity will be playing with at the Swordbrothers Festival in Andernach, Germany on September 11, 2010.  The Festival website also is a reliable source evidencing notability. I respectfully disagree with your analysis.  The Throes of Sanity source articles cited in the current Wikipedia Throes of Sanity article discuss the quality of the music and how Throes of Sanity fits the specific genre.  The cited articles are reliable source material pursuant to Wikipedia definitions and establish notability.  Thank you for your consideration.--Metalmusicscene (talk) 04:39, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep See comments above.  Throes of Sanity meets the notability requirement in WP:BAND for inclusion in Wikipedia.--Metalmusicscene (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Comment Additional source material including links to online written versions of print media have been added for this article subsequent to the proposed deletion that establish verifiabilty and notability. Also, there are numerous GHits including reviews, newspaper articles and listings dating back to 1992.  A organic Google search reveals additional media that does not appear in the links above.--Metalmusicscene (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions.  -- --Darkwind (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  -- --Darkwind (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete or Userfy -- Band does not meet criteria at WP:BAND. In 15 years there have not been any sources even mentioning the band as an influence? However, if Throes of Sanity's reunion garnered more media attention and provided more sources for an article, the band could meet WP:BAND criteria. Perhaps the article should be userfied and moved to User:Metalmusicscene/Throes of Sanity until their upcoming reunion festival date later this year. At which time, the article could be re-assessed. What if Throes of Sanity becomes a success at the festival? What if Throes of Sanity records a full-length album and it charts internationally? Based on what I see here, the band is not currently notable from what Wikipedia defines as notable. But they may have potential. Fezmar9 (talk) 07:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete per Ttonyb1 and Fezmar9 comments.--  C  anniba loki  13:33, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I have reviewed many other bands profiles and although I understand the detemination to keep or delete an article is subjective based on consensus, Throes of Sanity has as much as or more than many of the other progressive metal bands on Wikipedia. If a band is played on the radio, interviewed on the radio, invited to play notable heavy metal festivals with other international bands, written about in newspapers and online print media, that establishes notability pursuant to WP:Band.  This article should be kept.--Metalmusicscene (talk) 18:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment – You may want to check out this list of arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. More specifically in this case the arguments: "But subject X is very notable to those that know about it" and "But article X exists, therefore article Y should exist too." Also, WP:BAND clearly states that the radio play needs to be a national broadcast, and song airplay needs to be rotational -- not just a local station playing a song a couple times. And as for "The Swordbrothers Festival," it actually seems to be less notable than Throes of Sanity. All of the sources I see for the festival are trivial mentions at best, most stemming from a Portuguese website (despite the fact that the festival being hosted in Germany). Fezmar9 (talk) 00:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete- Not notable enoughShorngenius (talk) 11:04, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.