Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thunder Bay Northern Hawks


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was speedy close. This AfD is almost unreadable (and, having read it, I now have a headache. Whoopee!), caked up as it is with personal attacks and hysterical-sounding shouting and bold text. This is also worrisome, although not for the reasons Robert complains: attempts to "vote-stack" miss the whole point here, which is that AfD is not a vote, so it cannot be stacked &mdash; and thus degrade the level of conversation intensely, as one side floods the page with "votes", and the other gets ever more angry about it, with neither taking the time to really explain themselves. So, we'll wipe the slate clean. If y'all really want a reasoned discussion on this subject, you can try again from scratch, without the messiness we see below. Thanks, and good luck, fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 12:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thunder Bay Northern Hawks
Not notable- if every Junior B league team was included on WP it becomes a directory not an encyclopedia. top teams, yes. Even middle ranking teams at times - but not Junior B sides. Robertsteadman 15:58, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE THIS: - put out to try to avoid a speedy deletion which is what these stubs deserve. Robertsteadman 16:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Every WikiProject keeps track of which of their articles is up for deletion. I'm not sure how this is relevant. BoojiBoy 17:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I would also like to add K&A Wolverines, Nipigon Elks, Westfort Maroons for similar reason - non-notable - simply cataloguing things and using WP space. If these get kept we may as well list all primary school and kindergarten teams....Robertsteadman 16:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I see that you have a limited knowledge of Ice Hockey.... DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment -not at all - as explained when you put the same personl attack on my user talk page - the point is these are non-notable and should not be in WP. Look at the policies for inclusion. These are minor teams so far down the system and have achived very little if anything EVER! They have no place here. Robertsteadman 06:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Ummm... I've never written on your user talk page and on that note I have yet to write a personal attack. You seem to be all heated up for some reason, and there really is no reason for it.  You know what, you are wasting my time.  I've voted already, and I'm sick of defending my case to you ever half hour.  You and I are done talking.  Have a good day sir.  DMighton 06:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Rob, you need to understand... you are trying to disrupt dozens of hours of research... most of which was scheduled to be posted in about 2 weeks. As well, you are trying to set a precedent in a WikiProject that you are not a current member of... I really think the AfD should be dropped.  I openly invite you to come talk hockey with us if you wish, but this isn't the way to garner respect -- especially by mocking stubs that haven't been built up yet.  DMighton 02:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment In that case provide the evidence of notability..... Robertsteadman 06:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I did not know I was on YOUR punch clock, when I'm done with what I'm doing, I'll write up the articles. The reason that they are stubs is so they can sit there and wait for me or anyone else who wishes to to write them.  Stop your rampage.  DMighton 06:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Aside from the arguments others have proffered, I'm very unimpressed by the premise that listing junior B teams means we're going to be compelled to add kindergarten teams; it's a disingenuous argument at best, and I'm sure we can do without the scaremongering.  Junior B leagues are the principal feeders into junior A and college hockey programs, no less important than rookie and amateur league teams in baseball ... each and every one of which has an article.  RGTraynor 05:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE THIS (II): - This user has been trolling, edit warring, and abusing the "assumption of good faith" all day. He was even blocked at one point today. I do not understand his problem with the development of hockey articles or stubs for that matter and he seems quite eager to avoid the concept of due process -- whether it be the due process of developing a good article or the due process of a simple AfD. DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * COMMENT - his is unforgiveable - a clear example of misrepresentation - I have NOT been trolling - I was temporarily blocked by an "admin" who has a history of having a go at me and a report will soon be filed about this. Please retract your above statement and removbe it.My problem is, as stated above, these teams are not notable - we do not need something about every team only the notable ones. This, and many others should be removed. And speedily. I still do not understand why SOMEONE was allowed to remove my speedy delete tag which was totally appropriate. Robertsteadman 05:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment No retraction. And this is not your first time.  You have been on the warpath for no apparent reason and it is truly annoying.  And your speedy deletion tag?  It was an obsolete tag, are you shocked?  If you don't believe it is an obsolete tag... look it up, it says right on the tag.  The reason you didn't want a discussion was simple, you wanted another uncontested deleted page for your user page.  DMighton 06:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * SPEEDY delete as above Robertsteadman 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment You're nominating the article, it's obvious you want it deleted. You don't need to say so. (And this isn't eligible for a speedy). BoojiBoy 16:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - I think pointless space filling, potentially self promoting, non-notable things should be got rid of as quickly as possible. This is not notable and is a waste of WP space. Robertsteadman 16:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Self promoting? I live 16 hours away from there... not a chance.  I see that you have a very negative view on things though, maybe you should focus on subject you have a strong grip on.  Has this become a personal battle for you?  DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. WP:HOCKEY is working on cataloguing every notable ice hockey team and any team competing for the Keystone Cup qualifies. BoojiBoy 16:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * CommentBut they aren't notable! Robertsteadman 16:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Why not? Resolute 17:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - their honours? The level at which they play? WP should NOT be tryng to catalogue every team of every sort that ever existed - this is what the inclusion of such mionor and non-notable teams opens the door for. Is WP a list of an encyclopeida? Robertsteadman 17:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I believe you are superimposing your opinion. DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. Not. A. Notable. Sports. Team. Not even a household name in their own households. -- GWO
 * Comment So you are telling us you are from Thunder Bay? Please, if you know they are not notable in their own households, you must therefore have intimate knowledge of the team... this is something I doubt.  DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a f**king Junior B league. Get over yourself. -- GWO


 * Delete not notable. Jammo (SM247) 23:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. (But also, delete per GWO.) -- Kicking222 23:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete Less than two lines of text! Matt 23:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Ummm... it's a stub. DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Junior "B" teams ARE notable teams. Also this is a stub, meaning it will be expanded -- I have put forth countless hours of research towards stats and history.  Also, hockey is very new to the wikipedia, and more and more members are joining the Wikiproject on a daily basis... the chances of interest and further development are great.  I believe that to delete this article before it has fully been written (as it is a stub) is a travesty.  Let the Wikiproject do its work.  DMighton 00:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Canadian towns with a Junior B team pay a lot of attention to their teams. In the Canadian context, this is a notable team. TruthbringerToronto 00:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep DMighton has obviously been doing a lot of research on these teams, and I believe that he deserves the chance to flesh out the article into something that is worthwhile for inclusion. While my personal preference is not to create an article unless I can expand it into something of meaningful length, the use of stubs is a long accepted practice on Wikipedia.  I vote that we let the wikiproject finish its work here, then decide if there is enough to retain an individual page, or if the team articles should be merged into the league page. Resolute 00:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep It is just there so that we know to expand it later, but it gives us enough information so that we know that we're researching the right team. Briememory 01:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I think Resolute said it best just above me. ccwaters 01:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep, for above reasons mentioned. Croat Canuck  Go Croatia Go   01:40, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep for above mentioned reasons Masterhatch 02:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep No reason to delete.  -- JamesTeterenko 02:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and expand per Resolute, let's see what more they can do with it first. BryanG(talk) 03:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep As an encyclopedia, we should strive for completeness whenever possible. Some of the information is difficult to find; this does not relegate it to unnecessary.  This entire discussion validates just how necessary it is to include these types of pages in Wikipedia.  If users have found these stubs, it goes to show that interest has been generated in them.  Furthermore, if a user has put the amount of time into this as DMighton has, then it obviously has some value.  Finally, what does it hurt to put up more information than less?  If the information is accurate (which I assume it is), then what is happening is that a user has spent a great deal of time locating information across many disparate sources, and this only helps the Wikipedia community.  (All this from someone who doesn't have much interest personally in junior hockey, but I am aware of many others who do.)  --Kermitmorningstar 03:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep mainly per Resolute but also kermitmorningstar. I think that the articles should be reevaluated AFTER they have been completed by DMighton and if then, there seems to be a lack of information a possible merge with the league page would be in order. MBob 04:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment -perhaps "stubs" of non-notable teams should be usefied instead then? I cannot believe that so many want to retain sopmething about a non-notable team - but then when he has be calling on others to help out (as above) abd trying to sway the decision. The argument that WP should strive for completeness if untrue - it should strive to represent notability. This is non-notable and needs to be removed. It SHOULD have been speedy deleted but that tag was removed for no good reason. Robertsteadman 05:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep notable, sorting before writing is appropriate, not a speedy whatsoever -- Samir  धर्म 06:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep per RGTraynor, BoojiBoy, andKermitmorningstar. The fact this is a stub article is certainly no reason to delete. Agent 86 07:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW THIS, AND OTHER SIMILAR ARTICLES, FIT WITH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability. ALSO SOME HAVE SAID THEY ARE NOTABLE - PLEASE SHOW HOW. '''Robertsteadman 07:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Information - google retrurns just 40 results for "Thunder Bay Northern Hawks" - this includes some mirrors and several simply results pages. So... that notability? Robertsteadman 08:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment To anyone interested, the official name of the team is the "Northern Hawks". I have chosen to STUB them as the "Thunder Bay Northern Hawks" in an attempt to dissuade confusion with college teams or any type of animal... and so on.  This is a common practice in sports.  Often though, you'll see the team being called: "Team Name" of "Team City"; but I was not expecting someone to AfD a simple stub.  If, let's say, a user here was to search for the "Thunder Bay Northern Hawks", you would get about a tenth of the official documentation about the team that is on the net as you would if you searched the "Northern Hawks".  I am looking at those search results right now.  They are plentiful.  I hope this clears up any confusion that may occur.  Any guess on who will win tomorrow night???  DMighton 08:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment And in all thoise extra pages still no sign of notability.... Hey, there are several kinergarten teams and summer clubs round here... perhaps they can all have a page? Robertsteadman 08:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note to closing admin: This AfD has received a large amount of internal spam, in violation of the WP:SPAM guideline:                      . A simple count of keep/delete "votes"AfdIsNotAVote(TM) may be unrepresentative of true community consensus. Weregerbil 09:52, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Additional Note to Closing Admin The subject in question is a weighty one. The use of Stubs for wikiprojects and the importance of someone on the outside who does not know much on the subject at hand.  Although we do not believe a person outside of the WP's reach is irrelevant... we do believe that if it will effect the long term health of the WP, that it is important.  I was attempting to encourage open debate from people that this will actually matter too... nothing else.  I now have the administrator with the above notice raining fire and brimstone upon me while he stands by and allows the person who raised this question to taunt me.  This is perfectly ok, I can handle this.  But this alleged "SPAM" was only a means to include the community inwhich this decision matters.  Thank you for your time.  DMighton 10:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Please, if this is a notable sports team could you provide the evidence - just a sentence would do, as to why Junior B teams deserve a place on WP. It could put this all to rest. Robertsteadman 10:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment I am not an admin. And I am not "raining fire and brimstone", I am making sure you know the WP:ATTACK and WP:SPAM policies and I am asking you please to observe them (yes, they apply to you too, despite your continued efforts to claim otherwise). Please also see WP:AGF. Thanks! Weregerbil 10:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep A reason was already given, but you don't seem to accept it. It's notable if you are interested in it. I might as well nominate "Ununhexium" for deletion because I'm not interested in chemistry and don't find obscure synthetic elements notable. --Legalizeit 10:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment not at all - it has nothing to do with whether I am interested or not - and I am interested in ice hockey - it has to do with notability. Please explain how it is genuinely notable and deserves a place in WP - I suggest that all Junior teams A, B and C are probably not notable and should be deleted merged with their league articles, if they have notability. Robertsteadman 10:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Oops, my mistake... I thought you were just talking tough because you were assume a position of authority... oops... Like I've said before... Robert lost his assumption of good faith a while ago... and you Gerbil, I now trust you as far as I can sling a piano. You have both shown extreme cowardice... teaming up on me on my userpage.  I fear keyboard toughguys... really... get a life... DMighton 11:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Every professional sports team is notable, no matter the level: see Kingsport Mets, or even the mighty Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Pioneers. I strongly suggest Robert settle down a bit. I agree that DMighton shouldn't have left messages on all of our talk pages, but a simple notice on WP:HOCKEY would've sufficed. That said, though he did spam, he didn't say "come and vote keep." Verbatim, from my Talk page: "Hello, a user has decided that he does not want us placing hockey stubs on Wikipedia to expand later into teams. In particular he doesn't like Junior teams... I was wondering if you could please voice your opinion." What's more, this professional hockey team is no less notable than many of the high schools we have on Wikipedia, and every one of those are kept. RasputinAXP   c  11:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Question - are they full time professionals - if they feed into the Junior A, then College ice hockey.... Robertsteadman 11:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Response Well, if you knew anything about sports, you would know that anything below major pro: NHL, MLB, or NFL; is not fulltime professional. On the other hand, most Junior teams have legal base salaries -- at all levels.  Junior teams also sign players to contract, just like pro.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.