Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tiff's Treats


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is a consensus that despite verifiable mentions of the company that is not coverage from multiple reliable independent secondary sources discussing the company in significant detail. As such it is not notable according to our guidelines for companies. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:33, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Tiff's Treats

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This does not meet current standards for notability -- see WP:NCORP. Most of the refs. are local stories about funding, the others are very local promotional writeups  ot pure pR sites like local business journals  DGG ( talk ) 02:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:12, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 02:13, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.     </li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li><li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li>Brayles, Addie. (2009-01-28). "10 years of Treats: Started in college apartment, Tiff's expands its realm of delivering warm cookies" (pages 1 and 2). Austin American-Statesman. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2019-11-25. Retrieved 2019-11-25. – via Newspapers.com.</li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The book notes: "Tiff's Treats, three locations (also in Houston and Dallas), www.cookiedelivery.com. Tiffany Taylor and Leon Chen started baking cookies for fellow University of Texas students out of Chen's college apartment in 1999, and now they're a married couple/Texas cookie juggernaut, delivering chocolate chip and nine other hot, gooey cookies to the general public from nine storefronts in three cities. Pickup customers can also get Tiffwiches, cookie ice cream sandwiches made with Southern favorite ice cream Blue Bell."</li> <li> The book notes: "Tiff's Treats, 1806 Nueces St., Austin, TX 78701; (512) 473-2600; www.cookiedelivery.com. Tiff's Treats is a cookie delivery service that bakes fresh cookies to order and delivers them while still warm. Customers can order by phone or online, and fresh cookies can be delivered just about anywhere in Austin within an hour or so. Along with their chewy chocolate chip cookies, Tiff's also bakes up peanut butter, M&M, sugar, oatmeal raisin, and snickerdoodle cookies. Cookies are sold by the dozen and are popular treats for office parties and birthdays."</li> <li> The article notes: "Warm cookie delivery company Tiff’s Treats is bringing in more dough — this time $25 million — to help fuel its expansion across Texas and the U.S. The Austin-based cookie company announced Wednesday it had raised $25 million in an investment round led by investment funds managed by Morgan Stanley Expansion Capital. That brings the total amount raised by Tiff’s Treats to $50 million over the past three years. Founded in 1999 by a pair of students at the University of Texas at Austin, Tiff’s Treats delivers fresh-out-of-the-oven cookies and brownies to businesses and homes using specially designed containers that ensure the baked goods are still warm when they arrive.After opening its first stores in Austin in 2003 and in Dallas in 2006, the company is in the midst of a major growth spurt that has seen its ambitions grow beyond Texas."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tiff’s Treats all started after a bad date—or rather, no date. In 1999 while in college, co-founder Tiffany Chen ended up no-showing on plans with her now-husband and co-founder, Leon. She was ice skating with friends and decided it wasn’t worth picking up the pay phone to let him know she wasn’t coming. When she told her mom what she’d done, her mom insisted she bake him chocolate chip cookies as an apology. She did, and when she delivered them to Leon, they were still warm. “‘We’ve gotta start a business,’” Tiffany said Leon told her. “He said: ‘This is going to be exactly like pizza delivery but with warm cookies.’ I said he was crazy, but two weeks later, we had it open.” So how went the second date? “A lot better — she showed up,” Leon said. And the rest was history. At the end of November, a Tiff’s Treats will open at 550 Stonewall Street in uptown. Next year, a SouthPark store will open at 4425 Sharon Road."</li> <li> The article notes: "Since Tiffany and Leon Chen started baking cookies in their apartment and delivering them across the University of Texas campus in 1999, their local business has taken off. After receiving $25 million in investor funding in 2017, they've started expanding nationally – and technologically. For instance, Tiff's Treats now uses a mobile app that allows customers GPS-track their delivery and even record a digital, augmented reality gift message to accompany their orders. Tiff's Treats currently employs about 1,000 people, who have helped baked more than 100 million cookies."</li> <li> The article notes: "When I recently interviewed Tiff’s Treats cofounders and Austin power couple Tiffany Taylor Chen and Leon Chen, I learned not only about how the two balanced their personal and working lives but also more about the business the two have built into an almost universal Austin favorite. ... Leon and Tiffany first noticed a boost to their cookie-delivery business around 2003, when legislators would order the cookies as a late night snack or to entice on-the-fence votes. It quickly became clear that the cookies were popular at the Capitol. Soon, supporters and opponents of the same bills were ordering Tiff’s Treats. Cookies are apparently a bipartisan treat."</li> <li> The article notes: "Tiff’s Treats is once again in expansion mode. The Austin-based chain, known for delivering warm cookies and ice-cold milk for occasions big and small, said Monday that it would open two stores in Nashville, Tenn. The move includes the acquisition of Jake’s Bakes, a Nashville company with a similar business model. Its founder, Jake Veyhl, knows Tiff’s Treats well, having attended the University of Texas. ... Tiffany and Leon Chen founded Tiff’s Treats in Austin’s West Campus area in 1999 when they were still UT students. Since then, they’ve spread across Texas, with eight locations in the Austin area and other stores in the College Station, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston and San Antonio markets. Today, there are 36 Tiff’s Treats across Texas and Georgia, with more than 700 employees."</li> <li> The article notes: "On Wednesday, Jan. 15, Austin’s own warm-cookie delivery company, Tiff’s Treats, celebrates its 15th anniversary. Presumably, owners Leon and Tiffany Chen will be partying like it's 1999. During the birthday week, Jan. 13-19, Tiff’s is offering a special deal: two dozen cookies for $15, online only, enter code 15YEARS. ... Tiffany and Leon began taking the business more seriously after graduation. In 2000, they finally moved the baking out of their apartment and into the back of a Spudnick baked potato restaurant at the corner of 22nd and Guadalupe, on the Drag. In 2001, a UT advertising student named Matt came up with a logo design. The company, which still uses that logo today, paid Matt in the sweetest possible way - with cookies. In 2003, after the potato shop went out of business and the Scientology building owners wanted to expand, Tiff’s Treats moved to its current home, a converted cottage on MLK and Nueces St, still convenient for their campus clientele. ... After dating in college, the pair took a few years off from their dating relationship, but continued to run the company together. As one might expect, at times, “It got a little beyond awkward,” Leon said. But not only did their business spring from their relationship, the business kept them together as well. “It’s funny, the company was kind of like our shared-custody baby. No matter what happened, we still had to take care of ‘the baby.’ It’s kind of a weird analogy, but it still felt like that,” Leon said. “I think our love for the company kept us together long enough for us to come back together, in a weird way.” In 2010, Tiffany and Leon got married. ... They originally offered six or seven flavors, and now feature ten, with additional flavors popping into the lineup on occasion, such as the mint chocolate flavor available every December. There’s no specific process regarding which flavors are or aren’t added to the menu. For example, Tiffany said that she had never even heard of Snickerdoodle cookies, let alone baked and sold them, until her customers kept asking about them. Now that’s one of their most popular flavors. Their most recent addition to the menu, peanut butter chocolate chip, was added in honor of the company anniversary in 2009." The article includes quotes from the founders.</li> <li> The article notes: "In 1999, two college sweethearts took their love for each other and their love for sweets and turned it into a business. Tiff and Leon Chen, owners of Tiff’s Treats, started a cookie delivery company right across the street from the University of Texas at Austin, where both went to school. Now, their reach far exceeds the 40 acres these days. ... At first, the couple’s new venture didn’t take off. They waited three days before getting their first order. They started averaging a few orders a night. They were running the business without overhead from their shared apartment in Hyde Park. ... In 2000 they rented a back kitchen space from a restaurant on the Drag. Then in 2003 they moved to their first space off of MLK street. Since then Tiff’s Treats has expanded to Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. It’s a staple in Austin – you don’t get cookie delivery in this city unless it’s Tiff’s." The article includes quotes from the founders.</li> <li> The article notes: "Few things turn mature, reasonable adults into giddy, wide-eyed kids faster than fresh-from-the-oven chocolate chip cookies. These gooey confections elicit feelings of comfort, nostalgia, and happiness at a moment’s notice. Just ask Tiffany and Leon Chen, co-founders of Tiff’s Treats, a bakery and cookie delivery service. Their sugary labor of love couples her long-time flair for baking with his entrepreneurial spirit, which has resulted in a cookie empire that spans over 30 locations across three states. ... Like all good fairy tales, their love story has had its twists and turns. In fact, it began when Tiffany stood Leon up for a date when they were sophomores at the University of Texas in 1999. Shortly after, Tiffany’s mother said she should offer some sort of apology. Being a life-long baker, Tiffany delivered Leon a fresh batch of warm cookies. And in exchange for her apology, Leon presented an idea: this should be a business. Tiff’s Treats was born. ... The two then started baking cookies out of Leon’s apartment, taking orders via cellphone, all while finishing their college education. After graduation, they decided that this was a business worth pursuing. ... All recipes were originally handed down from Tiffany’s mother, and have been tweaked over time. In fact, t has been a family affair for many years, with Tiffany and her siblings shooting their very first in-home television commercial when she was just 10-years-old. She starred as the baker, of course."</li> <li> The article notes: "In fact, it is this very gesture that lead to the creation of Tiff’s Treats, a Dallas and Austin cookie-delivery business. It all started in 1999 when Tiffany Taylor delivered her boyfriend, Leon Chen, a batch of her cookies – a recipe from her mother – which Leon quickly devoured despite the fact he didn’t care much for sweets. A converted Leon then came up with an idea: he and Tiffany could open a cookie business in his tiny kitchen apartment and sell to fellow students. Tiffany naturally obliged. The UT sophomores took to sheet pans, chocolate chips, and vanilla extract and never looked back. Fast forward 13 years and eight locations, and the couple – who married in 2010 – are now opening their first store in Houston. At the grand opening this Saturday, the couple will be celebrating the journey to Houston by selling cookies for $3 a dozen and handing out prizes all day. All proceeds from the grand opening will go towards granting a wish at the Make-A-Wish Foundation." The article includes an interview with the founders.</li> <li> The article notes: "Tiff’s Treats North Texas locations include Fort Worth, Dallas, Southlake, Richardson, Las Colinas, Addison, Allen and Richardson. Tiff’s Treats was founded by North Texas natives Tiffany and Leon Chen in 1999, after they started as friends baking and delivering cookies at the request of fellow students at the University of Texas at Austin."</li> <li> The article notes: "Nineteen years later Tiffany and Leon Chen, each dressed in on-brand shades of blue and white and now married with two young children, are standing in the open kitchen of their high-ceilinged, light-filled Northwest Austin home telling me about the launch of their cookie delivery business from a cramped Hyde Park apartment. Tiff’s Treats has become a burgeoning empire, claiming a valuation of “well over” $100 million (privately held, the company declined to share sales revenue figures). It has raised $50 million in funding during the last few years, including $25 million via Morgan Stanley Expansion Capital last November. Its investors include Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings (former CEO of Pizza Hut), as well as former executives of Papa John’s, Starbucks, and Whole Foods Market. The company employs more than 700 in three states: Texas, Georgia, and Tennessee, where it bought an existing Nashville business (Jake’s Bakes) in March. ... Earlier in the day, a short drive from the Chen home, I visit Tiff’s Treats’ slick new corporate offices located along Capital of Texas Highway at Bluffstone Drive, which they moved into last fall. The space’s more than 12,000 square feet feel even larger because only about 30 employees work there. The company intends to continue its expansion into new markets and likewise expects its corporate team to grow, doubling or tripling in the years to come."</li> <li> The article notes: "An Austin-based bakery has enlisted the help of some famous University of Texas football players to help sell some cookies. Tiff's Treats released a new TV spot Tuesday morning featuring former quarterback and Heisman finalist Vince Young and former running back Ricky Williams. In the ad, Williams and Young, who won the BCS National Championship with Texas in 2006, can be seen sitting outside snacking on some cookies. 'M&M's are my favorite Tiff's Treats,' Young tells Williams."</li> <li> The article notes: "Austin-based Tiff’s Treats has landed $25 million in funding to help fuel i....ts founders’ appetite for continued growth. The 18-year-old company, which delivers warm cookies and other sweets, is getting the Series D money from investment funds led by Morgan Stanley Expansion Capital. ... Combined with $11 million in Series C funding led by CIC Partners in November of last year and $14 million in Series B funding led by Capstar Partners in August 2015, Tiff’s Treats has received $50 million total in financial backing in the past three years. ... Tiff’s Treats, which got its start in the West Campus area in 1999 when Taylor Chen and now-husband Leon Chen were still students at the University of Texas, has expanded across Texas – with locations in Austin, Cedar Park, Westlake, College Station, the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex, central and suburban Houston and San Antonio. It’s also operating five stores in Atlanta – its first outside Texas – and plans to enter the Nashville, Tenn., market soon."</li> <li> The article notes: "Of all the close calls Tiff’s Treats faced in its humble beginnings more than 15 years ago, none threatened to torpedo Austin’s warm cookie delivery business like the drama of young college love. This, as Tiff’s Treats survived its start out of a crammed Hyde Park apartment, was booted from its first store and even faced legal action from jeweler Tiffany & Co. But as it turns out, Tiffany Taylor Chen’s and Leon Chen’s on-again, off-again romance stuck, and with help from family and friends and a good dash of luck, Tiff’s Treats now boasts 18 Texas locations, more than 300 workers and a new cash infusion of $5.7 million fueling national expansion plans. ... The two have spawned one of Austin’s business success stories, growing a network of stores in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio and Houston after their modest January 1999 start. Tiff’s Treats is now conducting market research to decide where they will launch their first stores outside of Texas. And they could raise another $3 million or so through their current round of fundraising, according to U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission filings."</li> <li>Brayles, Addie. (2009-01-28). "10 years of Treats: Started in college apartment, Tiff's expands its realm of delivering warm cookies" (pages 1 and 2). Austin American-Statesman. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2019-11-25. Retrieved 2019-11-25. – via Newspapers.com. The article notes: "It was January 1999 when Taylor and Chen, who met while attending junior high together in Richardson but didn't start dating until college, started baking at Chen's Hyde Park apartment. Within a few months, they knew they would need a retail space. 'We walked up and down the Drag asking every single restaurant and bbusiness if we could share their space,' he says. A restaurant specializing in baked potatoes let them rent part of their kitchen. When Spudnik went out of business two years later, Chen and Taylor created a walk-up window for customers to pick up cookies. ... They eventually graduated in 2001, but barely, Chen says."</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Tiff's Treats to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)</li></ul>

Although I would agree that the PRWeb citation should be deleted and some other edits might be helpful, substantial citations from legitimate third-party media outlets exist as noted above by Cunard to suport the inclusion of this article on Wikipedia. A cursory search of the web reveals a number of legitimate citations that are not part of the existing page including: -- The Nashville Tennessean, Austin's Tiff's Treats bringing 'warm cookie moments' to Nashville -- The Austin Chronicle, Tiffany & Leon Want to Bake You Some Cookies
 * Keep

ThePhantom65 (talk) 22:18, 29 November 2019 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   12:25, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Cunard lists multiple references above but based on an incorrect interpretation of "independent" source. "Independent" doesn't simply mean that there's no connection between the publisher and the content, but also means that the *content* must be independent. WP:ORGIND states that references must by "intellectually" independent and that Independent Content must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. References must also be significant coverage with in-depth information on the company in addition to containing independent content.
 * - simply lists places around the US where you can buy chocolate chip cookies. This reference is not significant coverage, contains no [[WP:CORPDEPTH|in-depth information] on the company and appears to take the information from the company's promotional literature. It is little more than a directory entry.
 * - is also little more than a directory entry among a list of businesses categorised as "foodie faves". Contains no information about the company, fails CORPDEPTH
 * - is based on a company announcement. It says it right in the article. Not independent. Fails ORGIND.
 * - is a puff piece on a store opening with quotations from the customers standing in line to get stuff signed from the "brand ambassadors" and an interview with the founders. The very definition of corporate spam. Fails CORPDEPTH and ORGIND.
 * - another puff piece based on an announcement (PR) of a store opening from the company. Fails ORGIND.
 * - based on an interview - says it in the article. No independent content. Fails ORGIND.
 * - based on a company announcement/PR. No original content, fails ORGIND.
 * - based on a company announcement/PR on their "15 years in business". Corporate spam complete with photos of the founders, company-provided stats, etc. Contains no independent content. Fails ORGIND.
 * - more corporate spam entirely based on an interview, no independent content, fails ORGIND.
 * - yet more sugary-sweet corporate spam, contains no independent content, fails ORGIND.
 * - yet more corporate spam drumming up interest in their store opening the following weekend, all information provided by the company, no independent content. Fails ORGIND.
 * - another store opening, another puff piece along the same lines as every other piece. There is no independent content in this article, fail ORGIND.
 * - entire article based on interviews/quotations from the founders and information provided by the company. It contains no independent content. Fails ORGIND.
 * - commentary on the company's ads where they enlisted football players to sell their products followed by comments from one of the players. Contains no in-depth corporate information and no Independent Content. Fails ORGIND.
 * - based on a company announcement of funding, fails ORGIND
 * - another sugary corporate puff-piece based entirely on interview/quotations from the founders, no independent content, fails ORGIND.
 * "10 years of Treats: Started in college apartment, Tiff's expands its realm of delivering warm cookies" (pages 1 and 2) - yet more puff-pieces with zero Independent Content and based entirely on interview/quotation from the founders sprinkled with the odd comments from customers. Fails ORGIND.
 * Austin American-Statesman. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2019-11-25. Retrieved 2019-11-25. – via Newspapers.com. - the exact same article as above, fails for the same reasons.
 * Clearly, this company has good relationships with local newspapers and promotes their business by making themselves available for interviews and photographs and personally attend store openings. But none of these article are of any use for establishing notability. None contain any independent analysis or commentary on the company and when each article is taken as a whole, it is clear that all of the information on the company was provided to the journalists. It all follows the exact same story and most even use the same comments/quotations and sentences. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 16:38, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: The sources contain independent commentary of the subject. The Austin American-Statesman notes about the two Tiff's Treats founders, "The two have spawned one of Austin’s business success stories, growing a network of stores in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio and Houston after their modest January 1999 start." The article provides some negative material about the company's struggles, "Tiff's Treats survived its start out of a crammed Hyde Park apartment, was booted from its first store and even faced legal action from jeweler Tiffany & Co." The Dallas Morning News notes, "After opening its first stores in Austin in 2003 and in Dallas in 2006, the company is in the midst of a major growth spurt that has seen its ambitions grow beyond Texas." The Texas Standard notes, "It’s a staple in Austin – you don’t get cookie delivery in this city unless it’s Tiff’s." Austin Business Journal calls the company "an almost universal Austin favorite". Austin Monthly says "Tiff's Treats has become a burgeoning empire". Many of the articles contain different details. For example, KVUE notes, "For instance, Tiff's Treats now uses a mobile app that allows customers GPS-track their delivery and even record a digital, augmented reality gift message to accompany their orders." The other articles do not discuss this. Austin Business Journal notes, "Leon and Tiffany first noticed a boost to their cookie-delivery business around 2003, when legislators would order the cookies as a late night snack or to entice on-the-fence votes. It quickly became clear that the cookies were popular at the Capitol. Soon, supporters and opponents of the same bills were ordering Tiff’s Treats. Cookies are apparently a bipartisan treat." The other articles do not discuss this. The Austin Chronicle provides in-depth details of the company's early days that the other sources do not provide, "Tiffany and Leon began taking the business more seriously after graduation. In 2000, they finally moved the baking out of their apartment and into the back of a Spudnick baked potato restaurant at the corner of 22nd and Guadalupe, on the Drag. In 2001, a UT advertising student named Matt came up with a logo design. The company, which still uses that logo today, paid Matt in the sweetest possible way - with cookies. In 2003, after the potato shop went out of business and the Scientology building owners wanted to expand, Tiff’s Treats moved to its current home, a converted cottage on MLK and Nueces St, still convenient for their campus clientele." Cunard (talk) 10:35, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Response Look, this isn't the first time we've disagreed. I've pointed out several times in the past, as have other editors, that your style of inundating the AFD process with lots and lots of references, many of which clearly fail to meet the criteria for establishing notability, is disruptive. You don't need 10 or 20 references (or you wouldn't if you understood and read WP:NCORP}}). Just pick the three of four, the best of what you can find. Otherwise it is frustrating when I (and others I'm sure) read every one of your references which is a waste of time. It is disruptive. And I suspect the problem, in part, is that you don't acknowledge [[WP:NCORP and rely on bland statements such as "sufficient coverage in realiable sources" which, by the way, is not enough of a reason to accept sources.
 * Your say that several sources contain "independent commentary". I entirely disagree. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that your statement is utterly false. You appear to be content with plucking individual sentences from various articles and selecting those, in isolation of the rest of the article and out of context with the entire article. For example. The Austin American-Statesman article relies entirely on an interview with the founders. It starts with a large photo of the founders under a sign for Tiff's Treats. The opening of the article parrots the exact same story as every other PR article you've listed. The tone and text of the article is very clearly not independent content as all the material is provided by the founders. For example: "It was January 1999 when Taylor and Chen, who met while attending junior high together in Richardson but didn't start dating until college, started baking at Chen's Hyde Park apartment". Clearly, the journalist is not offering independent opinion or fact-checking but is recounting what he has been told. The inclusion of "negative material" is a story-telling device that precedes the sugary uplifting "strive-through-adversity" success. The other articles are exactly the same. Not a single article meets the criteria for Independent Content and article must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 15:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 17:14, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per HighKing's analysis. I checked a few of the sources and he's right: they're derivative. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 04:40, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - as always, it is the depth of coverage and not the amount of coverage that counts when establishing a topic as meeting WP:NCORP. Working upon Highking's analysis, there seems to be a lack of truly in-depth, sustained, independent coverage. In addition, it should be questioned as to if the topic even has a credible claim to encyclopedic significance, IE how they are notably unique when compared against other bakery services. SamHolt6 (talk) 00:35, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * KEEP - Many of the sources cited here are independent, third party newspaper offering factual information about this organization. Cunard makes this point above. We must be very careful when evaluating what we believe to be "quality" coverage and, instead, focus on the source. For instance, The Austin American Statesman is a legitimate newspaper. They made the clear editorial decision to include this organization in their coverage. While we may disagree on the tone of the piece itself, we cannot make a judgement about the editorial decision to cover what the newsroom believes to be a notable organization. They made a decision to feature this organization in their newspaper. The same could be said for the Dallas Morning News, Nation's Restaurant News, The Atlanta-Journal Constitution, and others. If the standard for WP:N demands citations from "reliable," "independent" and "objective" sources, that standard has been met here. Moreover, the inclusion of this organization in a book-length piece further supports a claim of WP:N. Starting a discussion that challenges the editorial decisions of an independent, third-party source opens up a standard that is extremely difficult to sustain.Coffee312 (talk) 20:23, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Response, yes, I believe everyone would agree that many of the sources are independent, but only insofar as that there is no connection at a corporate level between the publishing organization and the topic company. That is insufficient, on its own, to determine whether a source meets the criteria for establishing independence. Please read WP:ORGIND for a full explanation. Nobody is critizing the publisher - certainly nobody has said that the Austin American Statesman isn't a "legitimate" newspaper. The question is whether the *content* is independent. This also has been defined in ORGIND as follows: Independent content, in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. Therefore, the focus has been on the content of the articles and nothing to do with the decisions made by the publisher leading them to publish the article. Also, be aware that the requirement listed in WP:N is for a source to be "Independent of the subject" which also mean that the content must be independent and this is further explained at WP:NCORP. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 18:17, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete. Despite having apparently the world's best PR team, this is not independent coverage. Stuartyeates (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Response: Indeed, this organization may have good PR, but looking at the citations, they are written by independent journalists. This clearly meets the standard for WP:ORGIND "independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject". As noted above, one citation here is from a press release, which should be removed. However, most of the remaining citations are clearly from sources unaffiliated with the subject. Moreover, they are not drawn from subject's web page. Notably, as demonstrated on the talk page, an account with COI has not edited this page but, instead, asked unaffiliated members of the WP community. To delete this page based on independently reported stories that may have a tone that one does not agree with, would be a gross miscarriage of authority. I want to reiterate a recommendation to KEEP — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coffee312 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Can you point out one reference where you conclude it demonstrates independent opinion/analysis/investigation/fact checking/etc which were not provided by sources unaffiliated to the company, and point out the particular part of the content which demonstrates this independence? <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 13:48, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete per HighKing's evisceration of the PR-based sources. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.