Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tiffany Weimer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 13:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Tiffany Weimer

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Fails WP:ATHLETE. The fact that the article has no sources and reads like an resume makes it difficult to verify the claims in the article, but, even if true, they don't seem adequate to establish WP:Notability. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable member of established soccer league. Maybe not your cup-o-tea, but none the less notable. Proxy User (talk) 20:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:ATHLETE suggests that, for that to be adequate notability, the team must be "in a fully professional league". If you can provide evidence of that, I'll withdraw the nomination.  When I checked, all the post-college teams in the infobox were redlinked.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: All of the post-collegiate leagues/teams now have links to the teams and/or leagues that the team is in. Popndopalis8 (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Popndopalis8
 * Keep. It is encyclopedic. 29 dot 21 dot 87 dot 7 (talk) 21:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: User is probably stalking me because I've been reverted his BLP violations across multiple articles. — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I'm the editor and creator of page "Tiffany Weimer." I'd like to let everyone know that I've added references, and that there will be more to come. I'm sorry if this has caused you any trouble. I'm working my very hardest to find the right sources to verify the appropriateness of this page. Again sorry if this has caused you any trouble. Popndopalis8 Popndopalis8 (talk) 03:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC) Competitors who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports." I guess you didn't find anything about that professional women's team in Finland, either, huh? Popndopalis8 (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Popndopalis8
 * Keep. Looks well written to me. Professional football leagues for women players are not very common, so far as I know. Peridon (talk) 21:31, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - It is true that WP:ATHLETE states that players must have played in a fully professional league. However, in women's football, I'm not sure there are any fully professional leagues, so we must take into consideration the point about playing at the highest level of amateur sport. Seems like this player meets that criterion, hence the keep !vote. – PeeJay 22:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I seem to remember hearing that the Women's Bundesliga in Germany is fully pro. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  23:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, the US W-League and the Greek football women A Division are also fully pro. The rest seem to be semi-pro. Seeing as she has played in neither, and considering that none of the sources supplied establish her notability (for instance, being named a top regional freshman player doesn't really cut it as far as university sports go), I think I'll stick with WP:ATHLETE guidelines and say delete. Bettia   (rawr!)  10:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Err... If I went to W-League article right here on Wikipedia. It says, in the very first sentence, "The USL W-League is currently the second highest level of professional women's soccer in the United States pyramid." Key word- SECOND HIGHEST. How can it be fully professional if it's the second highest? Per [|this website], she has played on the Washington Freedom team, which IS included in thw W-League. SeeAreDubya (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)SeeAreDubya (talk)   —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC).
 * Why would being the second highest league in a league system automatically preclude a competition from being fully pro? The Football League Championship is the second-highest men's league in England but is fully professional, as are many other second-highest leagues......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. According to that she DID play for the Washington Reds back in 2006 (a fact missing from this article), and the Reds ARE currently a fully pro team. However (and this is a big however), I note from their history page they were simply associate members of the W-League at the time, not full members. Therefore they weren't competing at a fully professional level at the time, and therefore she still wouldn't qualify as she had moved on to amateur football by the time they became full members. Bettia   (rawr!)  14:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we are all in agreement that there is no professional league and/or teams in the world of Women's Soccer in The United States, seeing as no one has come up with a professional league within The United States. And until the first whistle blows at the first WPS game in 2009, there will NOT be any fully professional league in The United States for women's soccer. Keeping that in mind, WP:ATHLETE states "Competitors who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports." Seeing as there are only amateur leagues for women's soccer in the U.S. and there are only smaller amateur leagues, I would say that Weimer meets the criterion for WP:ATHLETE. She also participated in the Women's Premier Soccer League and right on the banner of the [|league's website], "Providing the highest level of women's amateur soccer in the US since 1998" which almost word for word state the parameters for WP:ATHLETE. SeeAreDubya (talk) 19:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC) SeeAreDubya (talk)
 * Provisional delete, as it does not appear that she has actually appeared at the highest level possible (and therefore fails WP:ATHLETE) - she has played in the Women's Premier Soccer League, which according to this article is actually the third tier of Women's football in the USA. However, it is unclear what division Santos are in in Brazil (and whether she has actually ever played for them) - if someone can provide proof that they are in the top division and that she is indeed playing for them (I couldn't find any evidence of this with a quick google search), I may change my !vote. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  23:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything confirming she plays for Santos, but this news article states that the Brazilian league is not fully professional at the moment, so it wouldn't really matter if she did. Bettia   (rawr!)  14:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - per PeeJay's comment about the professional/amateur divide in women's football, I would err on the side of caution and say she has played at the highest possible level, thus meeting notability requirements. GiantSnowman 23:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - How could you write an article on a professional soccer player without it sounding like a resume? The point of an encyclopedia is to inform the reader on the accomplishments of said professional player. It is impossible to be a fully professional women's soccer player in the United States, seeing as the women's league isn't going to start until 2009. Thus, this article gets my keep vote. SeeAreDubya (talk) 21:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions.   -- Raven1977 (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions.   -- Raven1977 (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This website [|website](click SQUAD on the top of the page where it says, Home News  Photos  Squad  etc.), which places Weimer on the Aland United FC squad in Finland. With this in mind, this website [|website] places that FC in the Naisten Liiga league in Finland (right under date of match, in which she netted the game-winning goal, listed as "competition") and the Naisten Liiga Wikipedia article states that "Naisten Liiga ("Women's League") is the highest division of women's football in Finland." Therefore, Weimer does not fail WP:ATHLETE because she has attained the highest level of a sport. I, the author of article "Tiffany Weimer", have added these references to the article. Popndopalis8 (talk) 03:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The 'highest level' as far as football is concerned is playing at a fully professional level, not simply playing in the top league of any given country. As far as we can tell, she has not yet played at a fully professional level, and therefore does fail. Bettia   (rawr!)  12:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just so we're on the same page, define "fully professional level" in terms of Women's Soccer in the United States. WP:ATHLETE also states that if a player reaches the highest level of an amateur sport, then they are notable. If there is no professional league in Finland for women's soccer, then that is the highest level in an AMATEUR sport. which does NOT fail WP:ATHLETE. Find me a fully professional Women's Soccer Team in Finland and I'll move on to my next point. If there is NO women's soccer professional league, then you have no case. Popndopalis8 (talk) 13:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Popndopalis8 (talk)
 * Full professional = receiving a full-time wage, i.e. one high enough so that the player doesn't need to take a second job to support themselves and are therefore able to devote their working time to their sport. Most women's football leagues are semi-professional (not amateur as you've stated), where they receive a smaller wage and so take a second job, therefore they aren't fully professional. Because she's participating in a sport which has a fully professional level, it can't be said that she's reached the highest level. It's already been established that there ARE professional women's leagues in the world, including the US. Bettia   (rawr!)  14:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I don't recall seeing anything in WP:ATHLETE about classification of wages. Furthermore I don't see anything about "semi-professional" either. WP:ATHLETE is as black and white as you get; "Competitors who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.
 * The definition I gave has nothing to do with WP:ATHLETE, it's a general description regarding sports as a whole. And whether or not there's any pro teams in Finland is totally irrelevant - football is an international game and so any players on Wikipedia must have played in a professional league anywhere in the world to meet WP:ATHLETE, regardless of where they live. If we followed the "there's no pro league in this country" path, every player in a country where there's no pro league would suddenly meet Wikipedia guidelines! Would you be willing to write an article on some guy languishing in the Bhutan & District Sunday League, for example? Bettia   (rawr!)  16:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, what if there is no professional league in a certain country? Whether or not Finland has a professional team/league is relevant because you're still disregarding the second aspect of WP:ATHLETE the one about the highest level of amateur sport. You're right it IS an international game, every country has some form of amateur sport and if that country does NOT have a professional team, then it only has amateur. Tiffany Weimer to someone on Bhutan & District Sunday League are on completely different spectrums. Do you think that if that article popped up that anyone would have anything to back that claim up. I mean we are still debating Weimer, who has played on 4 notable clubs, Aland United FC, Santos FC, Washington Freedom (Associate member or not, they were still members) and SoccerPlus CT Reds. These are ALL notable. You can't deny that. Popndopalis8 (talk) 18:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC) Popndopalis8
 * Whether or not a club is notable is irrelevant. There are thousands of clubs notable enough for Wikipedia, but only a relative few of them would enable their players to qualify. Bettia   (rawr!)  09:25, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.