Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tim "Griz" Martin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. With no prejudice against redirection. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 10:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Tim "Griz" Martin
AfDs for this article: 
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While we should be grateful for the sacrifice Mr. Martin made for his country, there's no claim here of meeting WP:BIO (and also see WP:NOTMEMORIAL). Unfortunately, if there's any indication of notability out there, my gsearch is swamped by other Tim Martins. Prodded to avoid WP:BITE, but prod contested by creator with an edit summary of "tim griz martin war hero". Probable WP:COI issues here, as well. Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  13:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate these.....We have an article about a guy who made the sacrifice he made and probably did more of value in one day of his life than Paris Hilton has done in her entire life, but she gets an article and his gets a Delete vote. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:39, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Changing my position to merge and redirect per later discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:BIO with the same lamentation as Niteshift36.  young  american  (wtf?) 14:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Question- I don't suppose a Keep based in WP:IAR is a possibility here, is it? If not, then I echo the previous posters with a reluctant Delete. Umbralcorax (talk) 15:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. According to this web site (which seems to be quoting more reliable sources that should be tracked down if by some chance this is kept) he won the Silver Star, but per Wikipedia talk:Notability (people) that's probably not enough to allow us to keep the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have cleaned up the article a bit, added some categories and a couple of citations. Although I understand that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is frowned upon in AfDs perhaps in this case it should be considered in light of the fact that there are many other articles about US soldiers portrayed in the Black Hawk Down film. Also the same goes for many soldiers portrayed in the Band of Brothers series. Many of them only have articles due to their inclusion in the film and books. Inclusion in a movie and a book may be considered notable, then again it may not and perhaps all those other articles need to be deleted too. — AustralianRupert (talk) 23:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:BIO seems like it would be the appropriate guideline here. The Arlington National Cemetery website seems more like a memorial site, with not a lot of subtiantial content. The Blackhawk Down source could definitely show notability if the depth of coverage is substantial. If it's just a mention on those two pages, WP:BIO says we need more sources.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  23:56, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom - WP:BIO isn't met. Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. If the claim in the article that he was portrayed by one of the credited actors in a major movie holds up, then I think that (together with the purple heart and silver star) would be enough for me. But I am not entirely convinced: IMDB says the actor played someone named "Wex". How am I to know that it really is supposed to be the same person, rather than some sort of generic movie soldier not closely modeled on a real person? —David Eppstein (talk) 03:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, David Eppstein make's a good point. I originally added in the sentence about Kim Coates playing Martin in the movie because I found that on the Black Hawk Down (film) article. However, the only sources that seem to say this are that article, and the actor's wiki page. Everywhere else seems to indicate that Coates played MSgt Chris Wexler, who strangely enough does not seem to be mentioned in Bowden's book (at least I couldn't find a mention of him). Hence Wexler might be a conglomerate character as David suggests above. Not sure. Sorry if this further confuses the situation. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:12, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This also says Kim Coates played Martin but the page is largely incomprehensible (use the CTRL+F search function with the term "Griz" and you should be able to find it). Definately not a reliable source at all. But seems to add further mud to the water...— AustralianRupert (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To be thorough I searched that page using the term 'Wexler' and also found that the same source also seems to say that the actor also played a character called 'Wexler'. So, now I am really confused. It would be great if the users who added the information to the Kim Coates and Black Hawk Down (film) articles could provide a source where they got their information about Coates playing Martin in the movie, as that might help to clear the situation up. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Finally found something that partially explains the situation. This indicates that the Wexler character was fictionalised along with that of a number of other characters. However, it doesn't state specifically that Wexler was based on Martin. Given this, should I remove the line from the Martin article saying that Martin was played by Coates, or should it just be reworded? (Happy to do so if that is consensus). Additionally, should it be changed in both the Kim Coates and Black Hawk Down (film) articles? —AustralianRupert (talk) 05:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't in all fairness support a keep using WP:IAR as an excuse. First, you know it will get renominated and second, I feel like I have to be consistent. I know other articles that have been deleted similar to this and, although I don't like it, that's not justification to keep it. One currently in AfD right now is Stephen Trujillo. I am trying to guide that one to a merge and redirect. Perhaps this one could be boldly merged and redirected to Delta Force and place Martin's info under the notables section. Opinions? Niteshift36 (talk) 08:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I could support that, or possibly a redirect to Battle of Mogadishu (1993) where there is already a mention of Martin. — AustralianRupert (talk) 13:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - Being portrayed in a movie would have turned the game (for me) but that doesn't seem to be the case here. What remains unfortunately does not establish notability, not even per IAR. --Pgallert (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. A soldier who died for his country. Admirable but not notable enough for a Wikipedia article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Battle of Mogadishu (1993) per AustralianRupert. Redirects are cheap. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.