Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tim McLean


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep per WP:SNOW, WP:HEY. The article has been moved and reworked to focus on the incident, per WP:BLP1E. That the incident meets the Wikipedia's guidelines on notability is not remotely in doubt. Non-admin closure by Skomorokh  00:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Murder of Tim McLean

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Non notable homicide victim. Jmount (talk) 10:29, 1 August 2008 (UTC) 
 * Keep The story definitely merits discussion and record-keeping on the same lines as various other stories on university killings and other human psychological events
 * This story has been picked up by the BBC, The Chicago Sun-Times, The Chronicle Herald, The Winnipeg Sun, Canada.com, The New York Times, The LA Times, The Associated Press, Sky News, The Guardian, and Bloomberg. I think that probably covers notoriety. :) 209.97.84.246 (talk) 10:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC) — 209.97.84.246 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Where are your proofs? HeLLboy2HeLL (talk) 11:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Right here. 209.97.84.246 (talk) 11:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC) some anon.
 * Speedy Delete per WP: CSDA7 HeLLboy2HeLL (talk) 11:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The poor guy isn't notable, but his death is; this murder case is getting a lot of publicity all over the world and will probably have an article soon. This can then be merged and redirected. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep HellBoy2, what kind of a discussion is this? You wanted "proofs" and you got them.  Your response is to delete it, except now it's a Speedy Delete.  How does this work again?  Collaboration and discussion...  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.105.203 (talk) 16:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The incident is notable, the person is not. A person does not inherit notability by being involved in a notable incident. -Djsasso (talk) 16:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment It's a close call. The case has received extensive coverage across all of Europe and North America, but it's true that the man himself was not notable. However, it would not be the first case of an unfortunate person becoming notable in death, other examples can be found at Wikipedia. JdeJ (talk) 11:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep I've just done a bit of research on the precedents for this sort of thing, and the best example I've found is JonBenét Ramsey. The precedents in this case seem to be that, first, if the murder of an otherwise non-notable person receives sufficient media coverage, the murder (if not the person) is notable, and second, the page should be named after the victim (in this example, the article is named "JonBenét Ramsey" rather than, say, "The murder of JonBenét Ramsey", even though JonBenét Ramsey herself was non-notable). I feel that we have clear-cut notability thanks to ongoing coverage in dozens of notable news sources, and we also have a precedent for the handling of such cases. The article should be kept and improved.''' 209.97.84.246 (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC) some anon.
 * In the Ramsey case, it notability was established as it was an enduring case. It wasn't just a single media frenzy on a slow news day. I would have no problems with this article being recreated if it is still being widely covered in the media beyond the next few days. Jmount (talk) 15:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename - The murder has received extensive media coverage. A 5 second search yielded an AP article as well as CTV coverage suggesting that the incident satisfies notability requirements. Torinir ( Ding my phone   My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 12:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Modified my !vote to Keep and Rename, although I have reservations as to whether "Greyhound Decapitation" would be a suitable title. Torinir ( Ding my phone   My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 20:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - This case has received significant worldwide coverage (CNN, BBC, CBC, Reuters, AP, UPI,  Washington Post, Scotland, Australia, Thailand, etc.) due to the horrific nature of the crime (beheading, cannibalism) and the fact that it occurred on a bus, which we all assume are safe despite the lack of security compared to air travel.  And lastly, in Canada, the nature of this crime is unprecedented.  As a country, we've never seen/imagined anything this gruesome, and hope never to see it again.  --Todd Lyons (talk) 13:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Adjust article - allow me to explain. While his life may not be notable, it appears from the source that his death is.  Perhaps a "Death of" article would be more appropriate for Wikipedia, as long as notability was established in the article.   Red Phoenix  flame of life...protector of all... 14:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * SPEEDY DELETE: Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute evidence of sufficient notability. At the end of the day, although tragic for the family, this is just another homocide.--Quebeccityontheriver (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the Notable incidents section of Greyhound Lines and Greyhound Canada's incident section. There is sufficient content related to the incident. Maybe some extra content can be merged there if necessary. The individual even though it made worldwide news doesn't seem fit enough for a separate article. Was he notable beyond this?-- JForget 15:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to Keep as the name of the article has changed to the murder event from the one from the individual. The murder is clearly more notable then the individual has some good references, even parts of the article would need some extra ones.. Redirect any other article name related to the incident here. However, still a good paragraph in both Greyhound articles could be maintained. -- JForget 20:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep or merge into the article on Vince Weiguang Li, per general practice with murders. - SimonP (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Per much previous precedence, muder victims are not notable enough for an article. Possibly redirect to notable incidents section of Greyhound Canada. -Djsasso (talk) 16:22, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Having an ordinary homicide is not enough reason to put it on wikipedia. Let's not let the media influence our thoughts shall we? ADB15 (talk) 16:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep but rename to Murder of Tim McLean or Bus beheading and merge in as well the article about the alleged killer Vince Weiguang Li. Notable case per . Non-notable victim of probably notable crime. He was apparently simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, napping when the attack began, and became the victim in a gruesome and widely covered non-run-of-the-mill crime. CBC called it a "grisly story that made international headlines."  Edison (talk) 16:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect to an article about the incident. As an inclusionist, I have no trouble with an article on the incident itself. But it shouldn't be an article about the (poor guy) victim. Re: international coverage of the incident itself? Is this even a question? It's, to name one example, the #1 most-read story on the BBC's website right now. Note the precedent of articles such as James Kim. Moncrief (talk) 17:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wiki is supposed to be an encycplopedia, not tabloid. We simply can't have everything that is hot on the news today included. M0RD00R (talk) 18:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that we can "simply make the choice" not to have on everything currently newsworthy, but I don't agree that "we simply can't" have such articles, full stop. Why can't we? We have the bandwith. We have the willing, free labor. We have the quality-control assurance. (And yes, I've read Wiki:NEWS, etc., so don't bother linking to those guidelines. I get that point of view.) Moncrief (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So thy bother with AfDs? We should archive it as obsolete when if it is not the encyclopedia, but rather "The data storage about everything" that concensus wants.M0RD00R (talk) 18:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My personal perspective is that AfDs are useful for the gibberish articles that fall through the cracks and that admins don't catch at first, and for extraordinarily non-notable topics, which of course I'd define in a way not everyone would agree with. Moncrief (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just one look at website like this one makes me wonder how many more "WP:RS"sourced, "WP:Notable articles" "free labourers" could create if given green light.M0RD00R (talk) 19:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. This particular case has prompted interest in a knife registry in Canada which is notable enough to deserve some merit. --Kuzwa (talk) 18:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For the record, the only talk of a knife registry was from Stockwell Day saying that such a thing would be completely unfeasible. DS (talk) 21:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Provisional keep - this is no ordinary homicide, for certain; butchering a total stranger on a public vehicle is not ordinary behaviour, even for most well-publicized psychopaths. If the accused is to have an article other than a redirect to the article o fhte venue, then I think that would serve it best; ortherwise give it a generic 'incident' title and keep Mr. McLean as a redirect to that. Radagast (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Another example of an article concerning the notable murder of a non-notable victim is Kitty Genovese. --MikeGodwin (talk) 18:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per those above. Thankyoubaby (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep: However it should be renamed for the crime.  As much as this incident may be isolated, this is among the worst and most barbaric murders in Canadian history.  The poor victim was not just killed, but butchered before several terrified witnesses.  It will likely be cited in future research in criminology as well as psychological studies.  Dcouprie
 * Delete. This is a textbook case of Recentism. Will this continue to be a big story next year? next decade? next century? If not, then no matter how much news coverage it is getting right now, it is not notable. LordAmeth (talk) 19:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete for now. The Kitty Genovese case is famous for its significant news coverage and its effect on the criminal justice system and social psychology (see bystander effect). There's nothing definitive indicating that this will have a lasting impact in history. We live in an age where people have a penchant for strange and bizarre news; the news coverage of this incident reflects this phenomena. I don't believe the normal notability criterion (regarding news coverage specifically) should be considered in this situation. If this murder continues to receive serious media attention in a week or so, or if it becomes a point of interest in the criminal justice and psychology fields, then I would reconsider my decision. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete for now. The identity of the victim has yet to be officially announced, even though it's being widely reported that it was Tim McLean.  Exploding Boy (talk) 19:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Change to redirect to article about the incident. There no longer seems to be any doubt about the identity of the victim, and the incident is unusual enough to make it notable. It has already brought about calls for airport-style security at bus stations, a knife registry, and other changes.  Exploding Boy (talk) 03:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Article satisfies WP:N and WP:V. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 20:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The event passes those things, but the person does not. The person falls under WP:ONEEVENT. -Djsasso (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Article could be renamed to "Murder of Tim McLean" to satisfy that. See Emily Sander for a similar topic. No reason to delete. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 20:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I think this would be similar to the murder of james bulger. his name redirects to a page regarding the murder.  In that case, the story received worldwide coverage, but not because of the victim, but because of the brutality of the crime. 142.161.188.58 (talk) 22:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to Wikinews per WP:NOT Jclemens (talk) 20:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. See above re JonBenet Ramsay and Kitty Genovese. --Lukobe (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Shanda Sharer would be relevant also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.209.140.21 (talk) 23:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - I believe that wikipedia is a good place to keep information about this person, and others like him. Someone may find this article useful in the future. - Richard Cavell (talk) 00:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to Greyhound Canada Vince Weiguang Li. Stabbings aren't that unusual. There must be at least a dozen or so other bus stabbings in North America in the last few years. I'd hardly call it that significant - though the media is having a field day; not sure why, stabbings are common enough, and cutting up a corpse isn't unheard of ... more like the actions of a mentally-ill individual than anything else. Do the other stabbings have articles? The whole thing should be merged to Greyhound Canada as has been done with Vince Weiguang Li (the accused). There aren't articles, or redirects, for other similiar victims. Michael Oatway was stabbed to death in 2006 on a bus in Ottawa - and I find no mention of it here. In 1989 a Montrealer called Jon Rose was stabbed to death on a Montreal bus - and I find no mention of it here (and I mention one so old as he was a friend of a friend). Nfitz (talk) 00:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Were they stabbed to death for no reason whatsoever as well as beheaded, with the beheader then presenting the disembodied head to onlookers? The article has many independent reliable sources. If Oatway and Rose have coverage then maybe we SHOULD have articvles on them. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They certainly had coverage at the time; the latter because it was an anti-gay killing, and former had national coverage. But should we be turning Wikipedia into an index of murder crimes? They only receive coverage because there are so few in Canada. There must be a thousand a day in the world at least. Robert Pickton cut his 49 (or so he claims) victims in pieces, put them in a meat grinder, mixed it with pork, and passed it off as pork from people getting meat from his farm ... but his victims don't have pages. And that one got similiar international coverage. Perhaps the best example is Holly Jones who was also dismembered, received massive media coverage, and that one simply redirects to her murderer. Nfitz (talk) 01:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep as per user Richardcavell's reasoning, third post above this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.235.251.198 (talk) 00:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Notability (criminal acts) (which isn't finalised) suggests that there should not be an article for the victim, unless they were otherwise notable, and that there shouldn't be an article for the Perpetrator, unless they are otherwise notable, they killed a famous figure, or the motivation or "execution of the crime is unusual". That seems to be where we are. So I'll change my vote to merge to Vince Weiguang Li. Nfitz (talk) 01:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Since Vince Weiguang Li has now been merged and redirected to Greyhound Canada, this one should probably stick around, since the execution of the crime is…well…highly unusual. dcandeto (talk) 02:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Wouldn't it be simpler to simply create the proper article where it should be - rather than rely on the single person who merged and redirected Vince Weiguang Li. Nfitz (talk) 04:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOT, WP:RECENT, WP:BLP1E, etc. As shocking as this news story is, especially to those of us in Western Canada, it is still a news story, and one for which very few of the news articles actually discuss McLean.  The few that do do so in as little detail as any other murder victim.  Resolute 04:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep If he were American, there'd be a 10 page entry on him already and this debate would not be happening. Witness there is no debate over there being an entry on JonBenét Ramsey, because she happens to be American? Violence like this is not that normal outside America. Randal Oulton (talk) 02:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Evidence suggests otherwise. Google news shows over 2,000 articles related to stabbings on/near Greyhound buses or facilities - and these all at least one month old - . If anything the frequency of bus stabbings there may make the whole thing less notable. One celebrated incident was the September 2002 stabbings by Arturo Tapia Martinez which resulted in 2 deaths. You'll notice that there is no article for him, or his victims. Nfitz (talk) 06:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The JonBenet Ramsey story has been going on for close to 10 years, that is quite different than this story that is now a grand total of 2 days old. The Ramsey story in itself is not notable just because the victim was American-- look at Madeline McCann for a direct refutation of that. Finally, this Greyhound incident has made the news because violence like this is not normal anywhere, let alone in America or Canada.--Gloriamarie (talk) 08:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ramsey case is being cited because it gives us a clear, specific precedent for naming conventions when a non-notable person is the victim of a notable murder. 209.97.84.242 (talk) 14:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC) some anon.


 * Keep and rename as Murder of Tim McLean. While neither the murderer nor the victim are notable beyond WP:ONEEVENT, the grisly nature of the murder and its aftermath have attracted sufficient interest to remain notable. WWGB (talk) 07:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename the article to focus more on the incident.--Gloriamarie (talk) 08:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename as Murder of Tim McLean. This incident is not only unprecedented in its horror, but may raise any number of questions as to the circumstances of the presumed killer Weiguang Li. Naming the incident something like Greyhound Stabbing is unfair to Greyhound since it has no connection with that company. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilfred Day (talk • contribs) 08:29, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep This story already made international headlines, obvious keep considering similar murder stories are on wikipedia Thisglad (talk) 11:22, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

keep Other Canadian murder victims have pages, even though their noteworthiness was limited to the manner in which they did. For example, Kristen French and Leslie Mahaffy have pages in addition to Paul Bernardo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.114.252.233 (talk • contribs) 03:08, 3 August 2008
 * Keep because multiple, international news sources are covering it. Meets the official verifiability policy so there is no reason for deletion.--Hope of the Future (talk) 13:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * keep- Plenty of ongoing news coverage, and you can bet that public hysteria will not let this die down. And before someone tries to WP:CRYSTAL me, I'm going to counter with WP:DEMOLISH Umbralcorax (talk) 14:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - Per above reasons. NorthernThunder (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - WP is simply not the news. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename and redirect. This article isn't about Tim McLean, it's about his murder. The murder is notable; see Canadian Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day's comments: "probably one-of-a-kind in Canadian history."--Bumpschool (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - for now, this is recentism; while well-covered, there's no evidence this case will have lasting notability. Biruitorul Talk 18:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - it made the news because it was just a bizarre murder (and mostly reported as the "weird news" type). we go through this almost weekly on NN news stories (and I bet this article will eventually be moved to Murder of Tim McLean through compromising). i'm surprised there isn't a policy that directly addresses this issue yet. --Philip Laurence (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - merge any pertinent information about this into a single article about the incident. The victim is not notable other than for being a victim. This has little in common with Kitty Genovese's situation, the comparison is not relevant. There are 10000+ murders per year in the USA, 1000 in Canada, and many of them make the news. A spurt of international coverage because of the extreme and bizarre nature of this incident does not in any way make this person notable. Many of the keeps are citing ludicrous reasons like "ongoing news coverage" - as several have mentioned, this is an encyclopedia, not a news site. Will Tim McLean be a part of Encyclopedia Brittanica in future? Not likely!CokeBear (talk) 20:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. A thousand murders a year in Canada - you think us barbarians? - no politician could survive that - 594 last year - at that rate (1.8 per 100,000) the US would have about 5,500 murders a year ... though if List of countries by homicide rate can be believed it would be over 17,000 - though that does seem unrealistic. I certainly agree with you though, but let's not exaggerate the figures. Nfitz (talk) 20:53, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.   --  Double Blue  (Talk) 19:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.   --  Double Blue  (Talk) 19:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge with Greyhound Lines or re-name. This murder is notable enough to have some kind of mention within Wikipedia. ~ A H  1 (TCU) 20:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename as Murder of Tim McLean. As per above, the victim may not be notable enough to make up an article, the bizarre nature of this crime certainly deserves one. smileydude66 (talk) 20:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename As many above me have said, I believe the article needs to be changed to have the focus be on the incident itself, not the victim. This crime is certainly much more than "just a homicide" and meets the notability criteria. Observer31 (talk) 22:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename The incident, which made international news, and will most likely have continual coverage as more information becomes available, is notable. The article should be given the name of the incident (Manitoba Greyhound bus attack or similar). The names of the perpetrator and victim should redirect. Hellno2 (talk) 01:21, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Rename to Murder of Tim McLean, per precedent (Murder of Eve Carson). faithless   (speak)  02:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * KeepThis is all over the news worldwide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.217.67 (talk) 02:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Per requests above, I have moved the article to Murder of Tim McLean, thereby making it about the notable crime of beheading an innocent victim, carving him up. and eating parts of him"Decapitation Suspect Allegedly Ate Victim" (CBS) on a bus in front of numerous witnesses, rather than a biography article about a non-notable victim who was apparently simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is in accord with the policy WP:NOT and the essay (earlier proposed guideline) WP:NOTNEWS. See previous examples: Murder of Adam Walsh, Murder of Airi Kinoshita , Murder of Amanda Dowler , Murder of Anthony Walker , Murder of Arlene Fraser , Murder of Axel Blumberg (and that's just names starting with "A"). See also Lindbergh kidnapping which is not Charles Augustus Lindbergh, Jr.. Edison (talk) 02:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * These names, of course, remain household names 15 years after their death. To say the same of this individual is WP:CRYSTAL. Perhaps a better example are recent bus stabbing victims such as Michael Oatway. Nfitz (talk) 05:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * With all respect, Michael Oatway wasn't slowly decapitated alive in front of dozens of onlookers, carried around as a trophy, then flayed and cannibalized. This is, to say the least, a VERY unusual murder, and while it's impossible to say whether it will become a "household name" sort of thing, it meets all current standards for noteworthiness and verifiability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.39.92 (talk) 06:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Most definitely keep, for keep reasons above. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia a source for notable information, this is a very notable incident.--Sugarcubez (talk) 07:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - Just because something hits the news for a few days does not make it notable - the notability guidelines specifically mention this; any statements made to the contrary violate policy. The fact that there are other people who were notable only for their deaths is not a workable argument either; if time passes and this person is still notable, that's a different story, but Wikipedia is supposed to compile information on things that are already important for one reason or another, not be on the cutting edge of deciding what's important. MSJapan (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge to Murder of Tim McLean, or merge to Greyhound bus murder in Canada (or similar article); Alternately, merge to Greyhound Bus 1170 listed under Notable incidents and accidents section; this would be analogous to the way we handle aviation incidents (e.g. American Airlines Flight 63 listed under American Airlines accidents; also see Eagle Airways Flight 2279 and Indian Airlines Flight 814). Also, there is a similarity with the murder of passenger Leon Klinghoffer aboard the Achille Lauro .  Finally, this incident has gotten at least 50% to 66% the media attention that the tragic Murder of Maria Lauterbach got.  Clearly, this assassination was a tragic and gruesome incident.  So, keep, thanks!  --Inetpup:o3   ⌈〒⌋▰⌈♎⌋ 19:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - per LordAmeth. WP is not wikinews. Another beheading also happened in Santorini, Greece this weekend. Are all beheadings going to get articles now? --Shuki (talk) 21:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, let's see how long before Adamantia Karkali (or Murder of Adamantia Karkali) turn blue. WWGB (talk) 23:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep as Murder of Tim McLean or related heading. Not every beheading or murder gets a page, but when the international press continues giving it the publicity that it does, then it becomes notable.  OJ Simpson, anyone?  LegalFiction (talk) 02:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename to Murder of Tim McLean with redirect from Tim Mclean This is a major news event in Canada (and, as shown above, around the world) and will be researched in the future. Non-notable person, but massively notable news and issue in Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.40.47 (talk) 02:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep as Murder of Tim McLean.--  Ευπάτωρ   Talk!! 02:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Lurgis (talk) 03:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep but rename to something more descriptive such as Greyhound bus murder because victim's name is not notable. --Voidvector (talk) 05:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea, years from now it will be easier for readers to locate the article if it is named "Greyhound bus murder" or "Canadian bus murder (2008)" rather than a name that most people won't remember. Chergles (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: That's what redirects are for. In my opinion, and based on Wiki precedent, we should name the article with the most specific and accurate title ("Murder of Tim McLean" works for me), and use redirects to get readers there from the more generic article names you've mentioned. Moncrief (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note I suggested renaming above, but there have been other murders on Greyhound, like this 2001 incident. Such a title should indicate at least one of the two things: That it happened in Manitoba, and that it took place in 2008. To call the main title "Murder of Tim McLean" is insufficient. It does not show what is notable about this event. Tim McLean is otherwise not notable, per WP:ONEEVENT. The distinctive attribute about this event that captured the world's attention was not that Tim McLean was murdered, but that a murder took place aboard a Greyhound bus. Hellno2 (talk) 17:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever name is decided upon, you can redirect or disambiguate pages in order to direct readers to the right event. "Greyhound bus attack" can be a disambiguation page, with Murder of Tim McLean AND the 2001 event above both leading from it. I think it's more important that the title be specific than that we worry that people won't find it because there have been other attacks on buses. Disambiguation pages and redirects work well, when they're used properly. Moncrief (talk) 18:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Pashator (talk) 11:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - Agreeing with others. I'd like to see a warning (like the current 'consider for deletion') for the content however. SailorInMtl (talk) 14:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC) — SailorInMtl (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Keep. Could also consider renaming, to making it more line with Wikipedia precedent for these types of events.  Andrew73 (talk) 15:34, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep as "Murder of Tim McLean" and use redirects as stated by others. Demetri1968 (talk) 16:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.183.168.107 (talk) 17:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep & Redirect As stated multiple times: McLean isn't noteable, but the incident surrounding his tragic death is. Should be moved/renamed and Tim McLean should redirect to the article about the incident.TIM KLOSKE 18:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't get why people keep trying to delete things from wikipedia. I have this theory that they're a certain class of people, "power trippers", who get off on trying to control something. Wikipedia is a natural outlet for them since it's free to contribute, but since they lack the creativity or talent to actually contribute content, they instead use their false sense of power to destroy work. Hey guess what. All those articles you keep trying to delete? People actually put time and effort into them. And you just come by with a flimsy "I don't think it's important, so it's not" excuse and want it deleted. Am I missing something? Does the mere existence of the article cause you harm in some way? Wikipedia is supposed to be a great informational warehouse, but it is FAILING because of people like you. Notability rules are BS. I am SICK of contributing to articles just to have them deleted because of some power tripping douchebag thinks the article is not important. HEY GUESS WHAT. There's an article on every single pokemon in existence, and yet no one ever deletes those! Yeah. Wikipedia is such a joke. You've just lost me as an editor forever. Way to go. If everything we write can be destroyed by people who clearly cannot contribute anything meaningful... well. Enjoy your mediocrity. 65.204.30.126 (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, strong words from someone who thinks that removing an AfD tag stops the debate! Don't think we have lost much from his departure. WWGB (talk) 00:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't mess with pokemon! --IdLoveOne (talk) 01:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It stays: As per precedent set by Kathryn Faughey, an article is allowed to stay if it is decided that it is notable, and this story has gained world-wide attention (and from the looks of it, much of the Wikimunity seems to agree). The people involved aren't notable, but the crime of the murder is. Aren't these kinds of disputes getting old? --IdLoveOne (talk) 21:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "It stays" is your vote? I think that's a decision for the admin, and it's probably much better etiquette to vote "Keep" or "Delete," rather than "It stays." Moncrief (talk) 23:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it matters if I do or don't, from the looks of it, it's gained substantial support already (and yes, I do believe that the article deserves to exist). --IdLoveOne (talk) 01:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think It stays is just a synonym for Keep, so either works for me. Varying it is kinda cool because it keeps the tallying editor on their toes.  :-)  --Inetpup:o3   ⌈〒⌋▰⌈♎⌋ 03:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep A person does not inherit notability by being involved in a notable incident?????  How 'bout JonBenét Ramsey.  How's this, if in 10 years this is article no longer necessary THEN we can delete it.  Lets not get all caught up in theory here people.\ (talk) 00:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep As per Smackalot. Madeleine McCann is another example. Harry the Dog WOOF  08:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Note that the article Harry the Dog cited is actually Disappearance of Madeleine McCann, not Madeleine McCann. It is about the notable incident, not a "biography" of the previously non-notable individual, just as this one is about the murder and not the individual. The same should apply to the JonBenét Ramsey article. Edison (talk) 13:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - This is a noteworthy incident in Canadian Criminal history due to the rarity and brutality relative to the normally reported crimes. Also the location is extremely relevant to all Canadians as I would guess millions of Canadians have occupied that stretch of highway at some point in their lives. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.207.98.128 (talk) 15:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)  — 69.207.98.128 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep- let's put this in perspective. A guy was decapitated on a bus in a G8, first-world country. If this happened in Zaire it's still a big deal, perhaps not worthy of a Wikipedia entry, but this sort of incident is unheard of in the normally peaceful country of Canada. A bizarre, singular incident surely merits some mention on Wiki. Heck, I myself have learned a lot from this article. And that's the whole purpose of the project, isn't it? Learning? Yes, no? Of course it is. Keep. The real tragedy here isn't the death of Mr. McLean, it's the fact that anyone would consider this article worthy of deletion. Well, maybe not, but you get the idea. Vranak (talk) 16:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's get the facts straight - the guy wasn't killed by decapitation. He was stabbed to death - in itself not an unusal event on a bus, not even an unusual event on a Greyhound bus. Only afterwards did the guy start cutting off body parts and eating them. Also there are other similiar events in first-world countries - like this one in Greece last weekend yet I'm I haven't seen an article here on that yet. Nfitz (talk) 17:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that fact that Tim was killed by stabbing and then decapitated, gutted, eaten etc. is a material factor in this article's notability. He was stabbed, killed, decapitated, gutted, defiled, partly eaten -- the time of death in this grisly sequence is rather immaterial wouldn't you agree?


 * Second the Greek incident is perhaps better suited to a the Greek Wikipedia -- we Anglos are probably and rightly more interested in affairs in our own part of the globe. Vranak (talk) 19:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Enough said really, the murder is as gruesome as any other big time killings. --Footballgy (talk) 19:43, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Laci Peterson was not notable in life, either, but her murder warranted its own page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laci_PetersonMindian (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep- this case is very gruesome, and will certainly generate a lot of attention. The argument of Wikipedia is not news is not valid, for if that merits the deletion of this page, then many other pages, even pages on the assassination of certain people (such as the Litvinenko Murder will have to be deleted. Arbiteroftruth (talk) 21:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Only because throughout the years Wikipedia has become more of news source of non-notable people in unusual events and less of an encyclopedia. Ðysepsion † Speak your mind 23:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - although it deals with a non-notable person, the incident itself is very notable. As long as the article focuses on the incident, and not the person, then it should definitely be kept. Beebolini (talk) 23:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - The incident is notable, therefore subject matter; including victim and villain are also notable. This is story that deals with a case of the lunatic fringe, generally a curiosity amongst people. People want to know the details of events such as this, because it makes one think. Why did this happen? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.166.13.85 (talk) 06:31, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.