Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Times Ten Cellars


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Cirt (talk) 09:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Times Ten Cellars

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

This winey fails to establish notability as per WP:N and articles reads like an advert BodegasAmbite (talk) 12:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Google returned lots of touristy links, but nothing to establish notability. Cheers, This flag once was redpropagandadeeds 16:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * @This flag was once red: A simple Google search is not a test for notability. Please read WP:NN for a detailed explanation of the topic.
 * Jesteban78 (talk) 14:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm familiar with WP:N, thanks. I based my !vote on (a) the article doesn't (didn't? However, I looked again just now and the references all seem to be local) assert notability (the subject is a wine bar and winery serving a neighbourhood of a city; it has won city awards, but so far as I can see nothing outside the city), and (b) I couldn't find any sources that suggested notability outside the local area - I found plenty of sources suggesting that the wine bar had been favourably received locally, but again nothing outside the city.
 * To put this is context, I !voted weak keep (and it still looks like the article will be deleted...) for an Australian vineyard on the basis that the vineyard pioneered production of a grape variety in Australia; I'm not seeing anything comparable in this article. I'd like to see at least regional importance - "this local winery is selling well in the South-Central US", pioneering activity, or something equally notable.
 * Cheers, This flag once was redpropagandadeeds 15:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly disagree with your nomination. This winery is one of only five in the city of Dallas, and the only one in the historic neighborhood of Lakewood. It is notable because it was established as a result of Texas loosening its restrictions on wine production, and is on track to become a regional brand with its second location in Fort Worth. HEB/Central Market have begun carrying Times Ten Cellars wine, along with over a dozen Dallas restaurants. It has received awards from Citysearch and The Dallas Morning News Wine Competition, an internationally renowned wine competition.


 * Your Google search may have returned "touristy" links because it is a very popular destination within the neighborhood (its tasting room looks much like a bar and is reviewed as such). All of the article's sources can be found online. Cheers,


 * Jesteban78 (talk) 02:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Please read WP:N. There is nothing notable about being one of only five wineries in Dallas, nor being the only one in Lakewood. Neither does its being established as a result of Texas loosening its restrictions on wine production confer any notability on it. Secondly, being on track to achieve anything is not a criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. The achievement must come first, then comes possible inclusion. If you read the notability article (WP:N), you will see how being carried by local restaurants, winning awards and being mentioned in newspapers also doesn't automatically confer notability. You should also read WP:CORP for issues related to advertising and self-promotion and WP:COI if you are connected to or have a relation with Ten Times Cellars. --BodegasAmbite (talk) 10:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have read WP:N, and it seems like we have a disagreement over what constitutes notability. I have provided secondary, verifiable sources to back up my claims. Even you seem open to the notion that winning awards MAY confer notability, but you do not explain why you think it may not. I am open to suggestions on improving the article, but you don't seem interested in that.


 * "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." 


 * No original research is needed to extract the data from my sources, so the article passes the "significant coverage" test.


 * My sources include newspapers, business journals and magazines that reach hundreds of thousands of readers and are peer-reviewed, so the sources are "reliable" and "independent of the subject." I can't stress enough that this article satisfies all of the criteria for a stand-alone article.


 * I have also read WP:CORP and can assure you that while I know the owners, I do not own or work for this company, so it does not constitute self-promotion. If you think the article is not written from a neutral point of view, please identify the section(s) that you find are biased. Again, I am looking for suggestions on improving the article. Jesteban78 (talk) 19:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, the sources are reliable and independent (even if they are all local), but that's not the issue here. The issue is Notability, and as I said above, the winery has done nothing notable. So it doesn't really matter if you provide good references, if there is nothing notable in the first place.
 * The reason I mentioned WP:CORP and WP:COI was that the article is just like an advertising write up.
 * It's not that I'm not interested in helping; it's that I have lots of other things to do (both in WP and in RL). But here's a thought: I see you've added text saying that x10 grows grapes in Texas. That might be notable if it's the only winery that does it or if it was the first who did it or something like that. And if you can find a reliable independent reference to back up the claim. The point here is Notability and references. As it stands the article is just an advert for for the winery.
 * With regard to awards, just winning an award doesn't automatically confer notability. There are literally thousands of wine fairs giving out vast numbers of awards and medals. There are very few that are considered to be notable. Also, winery articles in WP don't usually have an awards section for that very reason, and if they appear, they usually get deleted.
 * I hope this has helped. If you are keen to keep this article, you really must find something notable about the winery and back it up with good refs. --BodegasAmbite (talk) 23:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you're confusing "notability" with "importance". Wikipedia's article about notability states that it is "not necessarily dependent on things like fame, importance, or the popularity of a topic—although those may contribute." If only the first winery to grow grapes in Texas is worthy of an article, then why write an article about Pixar? It wasn't the first animation studio or even the first to use 3D animation in films. It is notable because people care about it and want to know more.


 * It seems to me like your issue is more about the tone of the writing than anything else. I agree that it needs work, that parts of it do sound like self-promotion, but Wikipedia's Deletion Policy states that if a page can be improved, it should be edited and not deleted. You can also use the tag npov for bias.

Jesteban78 (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2009 (UTC)  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 16:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wine-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Very weak keep. The Dallas Morning News Wine Competition appears to be a large enough contest that winning medals there would provide at least a small claim to notability.  The article needs to be completely rewritten, however. Karanacs (talk) 18:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Dallas Morning News Wine Competition would not be notable enough to merit an article on its own and at most would be a brief blurb in the main Dallas Morning News article. There are literally thousands of non-notable wine competitions across the globe giving out hundreds of thousands of awards and medals. Winning an award from these non-notable competitions doesn't infer notability any more than a high school football coach taking his team to the state championship. That's a far cry from winning the Super Bowl. AgneCheese/Wine 18:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete I think the article's creator is missing a key point about Wikipedia and our notability policies. First and foremost Wikipedia is not a wine guide but rather an encyclopedia. Additionally we are encyclopedia with an international scope and audience. Wikipedia was not meant to be a catalog of all the local mom & pop restaurants, business or wineries but rather an encyclopedic reservoir for those topics that go beyond just the local to a national or international level. Hence your comparison of Pixar with this local wine bar/winery is not very valid. The single act of making wine alone is not any more notable than the local Lakewood Pizzeria for making pizzas. As a member of the Wine Project, I could definitely be swayed to support keeping this article if something can be demonstrated with independent, reliable sources that this local winery has accomplished something of significance to the world of wine or even the Texas wine industry. Winning awards from non-notable wine competitions is not significant. Otherwise my roommate with her dozen plus medals from home winemaking competitions and numerous state fairs would qualify for an article as well as every blogger than wins a "bloggie" or band that wins a local battle of the bands, etc. AgneCheese/Wine 18:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna go with a delete despite my love of the tipple. They may have gotten awards, but my accolades from friends about my mead does not make me very notable.  Let's get some more reliable sources here and we can possibly make it work. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 18:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.