Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom's Ice Cream Bowl


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I don't see further discussion being likely to establish a consensus given the fundamental disagreement displayed here about whether or not current sources satisfy notability requirements. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:02, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Tom's Ice Cream Bowl

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CSD removed and now DEPRODed, fails clearly WP:NCORP and WP:GNG CommanderWaterford (talk) 12:01, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. CommanderWaterford (talk) 12:01, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Appears to fail WP:NCORP. Google News searches not turning up non-local coverage of sufficient length (outside of the Columbus, Ohio area). – Novem Linguae (talk) 12:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @Novem Linguae @CommanderWaterford I'm not sure if this would count, but the parlor was the site of one of one of Mitt Romney's rally's, getting coverage on Today. https://www.today.com/food/food-trail-why-obama-romney-must-visit-diner-flna1C6610948 SingingZach (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, businesses and buildings aren't notable merely for hosting notable people. TAXIDICAE💰  17:45, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. The White House is not notable because it's painted white but because it houses the US President.  Andrew🐉(talk) 18:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * No, the whitehouse is notable because of its longstanding history and the fact that there are thousands of books written solely about it. What an absurd comment. TAXIDICAE💰  18:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * 👍 I think the previous ("...because it is painted white...) was the most absurd comment I have read here at WK so far. And that means a lot. CommanderWaterford (talk) 11:19, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Spot check of new non-local sources: 1) Humphrey Slocombe Ice Cream Book - does not have significant coverage. 2) Newsweek 1998 -  does not have significant coverage. – Novem Linguae  (talk) 11:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Clearly passes WP:NCORP and WP:GNG having been featured on national TV with further detailed coverage in a variety of books and other sources per the search links above. As a distinctive and outstanding feature of Zanesville, the worst case would be merger into our page about that small town but I consider the page to be best left as is.  Applicable policies include WP:ATD, WP:NOTPAPER and WP:PRESERVE. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:56, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep It's featured in numerous books in GBooks and shows up in a few articles in Newsweek and Country Living. Tons of mentions in the local paper. It's even been featured in some works of fiction to help establish the setting. I think it's notable. Oaktree b (talk) 14:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @Oaktree b We would be very happy to see all those Book Citations, best within the article. Local coverage is not relevant to provide sufficient notability. CommanderWaterford (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @CommanderWaterford Newsweek and Country Living are notable secondary sources, there are about 10 tertiary sources, that put together, help establish notability. It's also been on a TV show, featured in books and hundreds of local citations. Oaktree b (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep It has been featured on national TV as well as being very popular with the city and surrounding area. -- SingingZach (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @SingingZach Please be aware that local coverage is not relevant to provide sufficient notability. CommanderWaterford (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, for companies and organizations, local coverage is usable to establish notability, as long as that coverage is independent, significant, and from a reliable source, and provided that WP:AUD is met. Please note that WP:AUD is part of the Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) page, and states that "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary". WP:AUD does not state that all of the sources must be at least regional (et al.), only that one of them needs to be. This is important because you come across as dismissing any sources that are local in nature, but as long as WP:AUD is satisfied with at least one non-local reliable source being available that provides independent, significant coverage, reliable local sources that provide said independent, significant coverage are usable to establish notability. North America1000 19:55, 23 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Featured on national TV, extremely popular in Ohio with significant local coverage. Mukedits (talk) 16:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * So you'll be able to provide those sources? An appearance on the Food Network is not coverage. TAXIDICAE💰  16:42, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * @Mukilteoedits Please be aware that local coverage is not relevant to provide sufficient notability. CommanderWaterford (talk) 16:36, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * A variety of coverage has been supplied including national news, TV and books. The nominator needs to explain why they failed to follow WP:BEFORE. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I did follow a before and found that the hyper local coverage is insufficient and just appearing in books is irrelevant unless the books are reliable themselves. Anyone can self publish a book and it's appearance in fiction is irrelevant unless it's the subject of actual coverage itself. If I write about my favorite corner store in my self-published fanfiction on Amazon, it doesn't make it notable. TAXIDICAE💰  18:22, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep for reasons cited above. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 21:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment In addition to the Newsweek and Country Living articles, it's been featured in the New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/ohio-proves-great-destination-short-family-trip-article-1.2348036), in the Cincinnati Enquirer (but the site is behind a paywall), an Australian monthly (https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2008/december/1350949737/don-watson/once-upon-time-america#mtr), a few news stories on TV (https://news.wosu.org/news/2018-07-05/you-can-now-follow-a-trail-of-ice-cream-across-ohio) and an AP newswire feature in the Seattle Times (https://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/candidates-hungry-for-votes-show-up-for-ohio-food-favorites/). It's been seen, written about and talked about. These are all more than enough for notability IMHO. Oaktree b (talk) 21:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: I mentioned to the nom elsewhere that the wording of the prod tag was decidedly off; the A7 removal wasn't at all incomprehensible, and the subject seemed to pass GNG. I didn't remove the tag myself, because I was unsure whether it passed NCORP and had no enthusiasm to start drama. Further discussion here, combined with the expansion of the article, leaves me more confident of an NCORP pass. Vaticidalprophet 05:06, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is all very interesting for us but unfortunately you do not mention with a single word why exactly do you think the article passes GNG. You thought of being unsure that it passes NCORP but you seemed to be sure that it deserved of being DEPRODED.  CommanderWaterford (talk) 10:03, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I do know that we have reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I'm not sure if what we have would be "secondary sources" though, although I believe that I had stumbled across some in some searches about this place. I think where this article falls a bit short on is "Significant Coverage". I do know it has been featured on a national news website, but other than that, I can't find anything else that covers it outside of just local newspapers and websites. I bet there's more out there just that I haven't searched enough to get to it. SingingZach (talk) 05:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The 30 sources referenced show that this single shop has a following in the State of Ohio, around the USA (in national media), and even in Australia. Easily meets WP:GNG.  Article is not what it was when nominated for deletion.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎</b>) 14:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - first, being mentioned on a national tv show in and of itself does not necessarily equate with significant non-local coverage. Second, has anyone ever checked to see if this "national tv program" actually aired? Turns out it did, not on the Food Network, but on the Cooking Channel, and consisted of a 3 minute segment. This is hardly significant coverage. As such, fails WP:NCORP.  Onel 5969  <i style="color:blue">TT me</i> 14:28, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment You've overlooked this. Today is national TV.
 * That you say that the food network's show didn't air is WP:OR. And is contradicted by
 * Given the present state of the article WP:HEY. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 14:39, 19 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete It doesn't pass WP:NCORP. The first five reference fail WP:ORGIND. A very small private business. Regarding the reference above, 2 comments above, it states in the profile, not a reference, It was a good PR move. Our name got out there all over the country. So most of these reference are PR and paid for news. I don't see a single source that doesn't fail WP:NCORP.   scope_creep Talk  12:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The Youtube video above has 7k. It might as well be invisible for the reach it has. If it has 700k views, fair enough. But it is not.  scope_creep Talk  12:59, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete as per my earlier comments and Scope's. This might be locally popular, but so is my local corner store and several local restaurants, many of which were featured on full length episodes on The Food Network - however, none of them, including Tom's, have been the subject of non-trivial coverage. TAXIDICAE💰  13:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NCORP requires multiple sources (at least two) of deep or significant coverage with in-depth information *on the company* and (this bit is important!) containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. That means, nothing that relies on company information or announcements or interviews, etc. None of the references in the article meet the criteria. Topic fails WP:NCORP. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 10:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a nice little article about a nice little spot in a nice little town, leave it alone. It is not advertising and a lot of editors have put work into it.  In these troubled times Ohio needs all the good vibes it can get.  Why not let this be a part of that? Carptrash (talk) 16:47, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per everyone else that voted deleted. Especially Scoop. Clearly this isn't notable outside of the local area and what small national coverage it did get was a PR thing more then anything else. Like Scoop says, if the Food Network segment had thousands of views and there hasn't been hundreds of other local corner stores and restaurants that were also featured on Food Network then maybe I'd vote keep based on that, but there's nothing to make this any more particularly notable then any of the others that have been featured on the network. Likely whatever coverage in other outlets it got were more a function of it being on a TV show then anything else to and notability isn't inherited. I think that's clear in the fact that 99% of the article about it are from after it was featured on the show or the whole Mitt Romney visit thing. It's not inherently notable just because a presidential candidate went there either BTW. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:50, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

<ul><li>Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.<ol> <li> The article notes that USA Today named Tom's Ice Cream Bowl in Zanesville as one of the best places for ice cream. It was founded in 1948 by Jack Hemmer and Tom Mirgon, two cousins. The ice cream shop relocated to McIntire Avenue in 1950. In 1984, the current owner Bill Sullivan purchased it.</li> <li> The article notes that Tom's Ice Cream Bowl was founded by Tom Mirgon and was "named as the top place in the country to get ice cream by USA Today". The article further notes that the Food Network would be "filming a pilot for its new show 'Ice Cream Nation,' at Tom's Ice Cream Bowl Wednesday that will air on July 21."</li> <li> The abstract notes, "The article reports on the traditional services of the ice cream parlor Tom's Ice Cream Bowl in Zanesville, Ohio. The parlor creates homemade ice cream served in dishes that look like soup bowls. Furthermore, Tom's will be stocking springtime ice cream favorites that includes lime sherbet and lemon chip."</li> <li></li> <li> The article notes that Tom's Ice Cream Bowl was founded by the cousins Tim Mirgon and Jack Rammer and that "the restaurant gained its reputation because of generous portions of homemade ice cream served in generous sized bowls." The article noted that "Bill Sullivan, the current owner, pledged to never change the name". It was founded in 1948 on Linden Avenue. When it opened, it had four tables and a counter with four seats. It was named Jack Hemmer Ice Cream. After two years, the restaurant moved to 532 McIntire Ave. so it could have more space for customers. After Tom purchased Jack's stake, the restaurant was renamed to have Tom's Ice Cream Bowl in 1957. After Tom retired, Sullivan purchased the restaurant in 1984. Sullivan previously had been its manager.</li> <li>Rudloff, Jim. (1997-02-28). "Zanesville's favorite tradition" (pages 1, 2, and 3). Times Recorder. Archived from the original (pages 1, 2, and 3) on 2021-04-26  Retrieved 2021-04-26 – via Newspapers.com. This is an extensive three-page profile of Tom's Ice Cream Bowl.</li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Tom's Ice Cream Bowl to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 11:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * The articles from Thomson News Service (national coverage), Country Living (national coverage), and Cleveland, Ohio-based Ohio Magazine (statewide coverage) allow Tom's Ice Cream Bowl to pass Notability (organizations and companies), which says: "The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary."The local newspaper Times Recorder has extensively profiled Tom's Ice Cream Bowl. Tom's Ice Cream Bowl has received sustained coverage over a period of several decades with sources published in 1992, 1997, 1998, 2003, 2006, and 2017. Cunard (talk) 11:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.