Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Cat


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep/No consensus. There is a consensus to keep Tom Cat, Jerry Mouse and Mammy Two Shoes. The possibility of merging all or some of the other articles should be discussed on the relevant talk-pages. Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 13:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Tom Cat

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

I am also nominating the following related pages:



These are all Tom and Jerry cartoon characters, and all of these articles are filled with original research and personal reports. There's nothing that can't be said about most of these characters in a good one or two sentences in the main Tom and Jerry article. The only article that really contains anything more than original research is the Mammy Two Shoes article, which parrots the censorship/re-edit history of the cartoons themselves. There honestly isn't much to discuss about the character herself - in addition to or in further detail beyond the editing of the cartoons - in a separate article.

I'd suggest all of these except Spike (Tom and Jerry) and Tyke (Tom and Jerry) be redirected back to Tom and Jerry, with no merge (in fact, Tom and Jerry could stand to be pared down significantly to cut through a lot of muck and mire added by an obviously passionate fan. Spike (Tom and Jerry) and Tyke (Tom and Jerry) could be redirect to Spike and Tyke, an article on their short-lived cartoon series. FuriousFreddy (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.  -- PleaseStand (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions.  -- PleaseStand (talk) 20:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Procedural Close (is that possible?) and start over. I agree with FuriousFreddy on Spike and Tyke, and I would argue that Mammy Two-Shoes deserves to remain because of the controversial elements surrounding the character. Jerry Mouse could possibly have his own article because he was also used as a solo character in a Gene Kelly movie (his article doesn't mention that). The others could be merged into the main Tom and Jerry article. Joal Beal (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why does there need to be a procedural close? I followed the guidelines for nominating articles for deletion as a group (really this is a nomination for redirect, but we don't have such a setup). I wanted consensus before I did this and got into some edit war with a Tom & Jerry fan. There should already be mention of Jerry Mouse appearing in Anchors Aweigh as a solo character. I don't see what would need to be covered in a separate Jerry Mouse article that wouldn't already be covered in the Anchors Aweigh article, since I'm fairly certain that's the only place he's ever appeared "without" Tom (Tom does has a cameo in the film). --FuriousFreddy (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * , No, you do not seem to have followed the process described at WP:BEFORE. For example, all you've done at the Tom Cat article is nominate it for deletion.  There seems to have been no discussion at its talk page, attempts to improve the article or contemplate alternatives to deletion. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: At very least merge the less significant characters, even redirecting some back to Tom and Jerry.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erik Garrison (talk • contribs) 22:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think the idea of a Procedural close has merit - in this case, it would be because this sounds essentially like a Merge discussion, which does not require an AFD. I can find no evidence of a previous merge discussion at Tom and Jerry, nor do I see one at any of the character articles, and - per WP:BEFORE, we really should have gone that route first. I agree that there's a lot of uncited material here, and much of it is probably original research. But before we go and delete these articles, including several (like Tom himself) that have obvious notability, I think we need to have a proper merge discussion that has no seven-day time frame, and that does not include the threat of deletion. A procedural close would not bias consensus on individual articles, if they came to AFD later on. It looks like the nomination is in order, so far as adding so many other articles goes, but the articles differ wildly in notability - and it's hard to say that they all should be kept, deleted, or what have you. It would be easier to discuss and evaluate if the nominations were separate, or at least more separate (two or three at a time, for example). UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 23:04, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First, like I said in the intro, there's nothing to merge: all the content is original research with no encyclopedic merit, and anything that could be merged is already in the Tom and Jerry article (and much of that is going to be deleted out of that article when I get the chance to revise it). What is there to merge? That's why I did the afds. Second, with these sorts of articles, I know from experience; there's not going to be any decent discussion of keep/merge. They'll sit there until someone does something. I mean, these sat here in this state for years as it was anyway. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 01:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem here is that I can definitely see myself going Delete on some of these, and Strong Keep on others - which is an indication that this particular debate is overly broad. If you call the question at Talk:Tom and Jerry, notify WikiProject Animation and maybe some others, and get a proper discussion going, then you'll have a clear consensus one way or the other. You might also find that you suddenly have other editors who are engaged in the process and willing to help. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 13:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - per UltraExactZZ's observation that these cartoon characters are inherently notable meaning all subjects within the category are surely notable. moreno oso (talk) 03:33, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You just linked an essay, not a policy. Just wanted to point that out. So is the house that Tom & Jerry live in also inherently notable? --FuriousFreddy (talk) 03:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - As a nominator, you should be aware of List of policies and guidelines to cite in deletion debates. This is perfectly acceptable in WP:AfD. And, I referenced UltraExactZZ's cite of WP:BEFORE which is policy. Another handy item to read before nominating. moreno oso (talk) 03:47, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I read all of that (I'd appreciate it if you took the condescending tone out of your voice). And yes, I still made the afd. Why? Because the articles need to be done away with, not improved, tagged for cleanup, referenced. Read them. It's full of personal reports from some child watching cartoons. There's actual encyclopedic coverage that can be afforded a subject like Tom and Jerry, but this isn't it. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 03:54, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all. Massive sources exist for this historically significant cartoon. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't an afd for Tom and Jerry. This is an afd for individual characters from the cartoon series, the same way someone once created individual articles for every character from Glitter. And I own or have immediate access to all of those "massive sources", and there's nothing in any of them that can be used for most of these articles. There is no verifiable third party coverage of any characters named "Meathead", "Topsy", "Butch", or "Toodles Galore" from Tom and Jerry cartoons. If you can prove me wrong and find anything, I'll shut up. They're all just personal reports. I honestly want to know: did you actually read any of these articles? --FuriousFreddy (talk) 05:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: After doing some research, I have no verifiable sources for the existence of the names "Meathead", "Topsy", and "Toodles Galore" for the characters identified under them. Unless someone can provide otherwise, I would like to modify my vote for those three to delete. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 05:53, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a cartoon where Toodles is identified as Toodles (see 3:11): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1rb84_tom-jerry-springtime-for-thomas_fun
 * And here's another (several textual references from 0:45 to 0:50): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmfnVxu2iXU I'm certain that the surname Galore is canon too, but haven't had a chance to track it down (yet). Ramapith (talk) 05:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge all into List of Tom and Jerry characters (yes, I know that's a red link), and cleanup. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 06:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * A List of Tom and Jerry characters article is not a bad idea at all. --FuriousFreddy (talk) 13:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all There are plenty of news reviews talking about the series, and mentioning the characters in detail. Mammy Two Shoes gets plenty of mention in books. []   D r e a m Focus  08:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete or redirect the recurring characters, neutral on Jerry and Tom because there may be enough notability independent on the current state of their articles. The articles on the recurring characters consist mostly of either unsourced material or original research, and the long Appearances sections are just WP:TRIVIA and shouldn't be there anyway. There already is adequate coverage in Tom_and_Jerry_(MGM) for them, but I wouldn't mind a spinout List of Tom and Jerry characters. – sgeureka t•c 08:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Tom Cat, Jerry Mouse, Mammy Two Shoes and Spike (Tom and Jerry) as these are major characters in this historically and culturally significant cartoon; good sources exist for these subjects even if they aren't currently being referenced. Mammy Two Shoes is a Strong Keep due to the controversy surrounding this character and the good quality of the article. Merge Tyke (Tom and Jerry) into Spike (Tom and Jerry). Redact and merge the rest into List of Tom and Jerry characters as per user:TorriTorri's suggestion. Andrew Oakley (talk) 13:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed that we should Keep Tom, Jerry, Mammy, and Spike on their own and Merge the others into List of Tom and Jerry characters. They will still take some editing: Meathead is a mess and contains some inaccurate information. But that's not cause for deletion by itself. I'm not as passionate a fan as the junkie who wrote most of the articles, but as a moderately interested MGM animation scholar I still find them helpful to have around. Ramapith (talk) 06:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've dug up copies of Hanna's and Barbera's autobiographies, and I should have enough reference material now to write verified separate articles on at least Tom, Jerry, and Mammy Two-Shoes as characters that won't overlap with the scope of the article on the series. I've laready started revising Jerry Mouse. Can I withdraw those three articles by themselves, while we vote on what to do with the others, or should I procedurally close and start over with the more troublesome entries? --FuriousFreddy (talk) 15:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep (and rewrite). Tom Cat and Jerry Mouse are iconic cartoon characters.  The Tom Cat article has potential for development and I would suggest that, while it should be flagged as needing urgent improvement, it should not be considered an appropriate candidate for AfD. DiverScout (talk) 08:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all Notable topics for which there are many sources. The nomination seems overbold contrary to our deletion and editing policies. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus: Keep Tom Cat, Jerry Mouse, Mammy Two Shoes and the rest go in to List of Tom and Jerry characters. The only non-consensus is whether we keep Spike (Tom and Jerry) or push that into List of Tom and Jerry characters too; I'm not particularly fussed since although Spike & Tyke have had their own outings, these are rare; Spike & Tyke are generally considered to be Tom & Jerry characters. Can we call it and create List of Tom and Jerry characters now please? We can leave Spike's page alone and worry about it later once the list page is done. If there are no objections within 24 hours, I'll create List of Tom and Jerry characters and move edited versions of Butch, Lightning, Meathead, Toodles, Topsy and Tyke into that, then redirect those articles to their sections in that list. The major characters (Tom, Jerry, Mammy) will have Main Article: links from the list page, as will Spike until we form consensus on his article. Andrew Oakley (talk) 14:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As an example of what List of Tom and Jerry characters should look like, I cite: List of characters in Heroes, List of companions in Doctor Who spin-offs Andrew Oakley (talk) 14:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It sounds like a plan to me. DiverScout (talk) 18:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Me too, but when coming up with List of Tom and Jerry characters let's not leave out Quacker, who seems to have dropped through the cracks (quacks?). Also curious about Tuffy, whom we haven't mentioned but is arguably next most important behind Tom, Jerry, and Mammy—he was created for comics before he appeared in cartoons, and has been in literally thousands of them. Tuffy presently has a Main Article and I think he should keep it. Ramapith (talk) 03:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, sorry, missed that one. I suggest that Quacker's main article is linked from List of Tom and Jerry characters since there isn't currently a consensus on the fate of his article. If a consensus later emerges on integrating his main article into the list article, then that can be done at a later date. Let's focus today on what we do agree on; tidying up the content-thin Butch, Lightning, Meathead, Toodles, Topsy and Tyke articles into List of Tom and Jerry characters and linking the remaining major characters' main articles from that. Andrew Oakley (talk) 08:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Tyke should be incorporated with Spike, not List of Tom and Jerry characters.Ramapith (talk) 04:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, good night... I've just spent a little time trying to fix up the Butch, Lightning, and Meathead pages to scrub some glitches (in particular, the strange and erroneous idea that Meathead evolved into Lightning). Then I went back to the Tom and Jerry main page and took a look at the shorter character bios there. Holy crap—these bios have the same errors and more (I didn't think more was possible!); a few truly odd choices (Butch and Toodles share a bio... why?), and I don't have time to fix them. So—not only does List of Tom and Jerry characters need to incorporate the present main articles for Butch, Lightning, Meathead, Toodles, and Topsy—it needs to replace the Butch, Lightning, Meathead, Toodles, and Topsy bios on the main Tom and Jerry page.Ramapith (talk) 04:04, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep All without prejudice to individual relistings of the minor characters.--Milowent (talk) 05:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Tom Cat, Jerry Mouse, weak keep to Spike (Tom and Jerry) and Merge the rest to a List of Tom and Jerry characters The notability of the first two has been established, has significant coverage, not sure about the third one and the recurring characters should instead be merged. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep all and discuss merge: there was a better way to handle this nomination. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge most, keep the few, per Andrew Oakley above. David V Houston (talk) 13:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.