Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tomi Saarelma (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was  Delete No argument has been made that Saarelma would be notable without benefit of WP:ATHLETE, which confers subject specific notability upon "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully-professional league". As Jimbo points out, the Veikkausliiga, although it is Finland's premier league, is listed among "Top level leagues which are not fully professional" FPL, although it is 93% professional. User:Nfitz has a good point, in that an "all or nothing" requirement excludes Finland (and for that matter, New Zealand, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Canada), while admitting players all players in a good deal of the world's minor leagues, such as America's USL Second Division. However, use of common sense is going to be something that the writers of policy must do, not the appliers of policy. If the status of Veikkausliiga were to change, or the rule were to be changed from 100% to "at least 90%", Saarelma would be able to bypass WP:PEOPLE. Until then, he cannot come in under WP:ATHLETE. Mandsford 17:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Tomi Saarelma
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG, and who has not played in a fully pro league. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:15, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - still fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 17:41, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Query - seeing as the article was actually deleted using the first afd nomination, and im presuming the article is pretty similar now than it was in the original, wouldn't it fall under speedy deletion criteria category G4; "Recreation of a page that was deleted per a deletion discussion"? Eddie6705 (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not. The last nomination was four years ago, and Mr. Saarelma's career has advanced considerably since then, making the article sufficiently different to not fall under G4. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahh i see. Well that makes sense. In terms of this nomination, as pointed out above, he still fails notability as he has not played for a professional club. Therefore Delete. Eddie6705 (talk) 18:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep played in a pro league Ban  Ray  10:07, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * which league was that? Eddie6705 (talk) 12:47, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I was talking about Veikkausliiga, please see my comment here. The one that was successfully ignored by the nominator who later switched to using "lack of significant media coverage" as a rationale for deletion. Veikkausliiga pays an average salary of over €20K, with one third of players earning more than €33K. It is a professional league. Ban  Ray  14:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Comment - thanks BanRay for your previous comment about the Anglocentrism reflected in particular in Wikipedia AfDs. I've just posted above here at the Paolo Pires AfD.  It's systemic.  AfD nominators are often unconcerned about the wider consequences of their relentless pursuit of the letter of the law within the closed universe of their experience.  The possibility that there's a wider world of more and less important information out there, that we depend on people with more limited command of English, more limited access to technical resources and less extensive Wikipedia skills to bring to our notice, is excluded.  The limited number of people concerned about the purging of that information can't spend all their time running after brush fires - they give up trying.  Similarly the contributors see their efforts deleted and give up on English Wikipedia.  Maybe we just have to wait till the Chinese Wikipedia is the one that all the world wants to read and then maybe we'll see the world like others see us. Opbeith (talk) 23:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Is every club in Veikkausliiga professional? If so then I don't see a problem, he would pass WP:ATHLETE. Argyle 4 Life  talk  15:22, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - Has not played in a professional league and fails WP:GNG also Spiderone  15:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - According to the source at WP:FPL, the Veikkausliiga is only 93% professional as of 2010. --Jimbo[online] 01:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Plays in the top team of an almost completely professional league in the highest level of the countries pyramid.  WP:UCS indicates that's close enough.  He also seems to have significant coverage in Finnish and Estonian sources.  Deleting this article would be a clear case of WP:BIAS. Nfitz (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, fails WP:ATHLETE as he has not appeared in a fully-professional league. Standard run-of-the-mill stats websites and match reports fail WP:NTEMP and WP:GNG. --Jimbo[online] 17:07, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.