Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tommy D. Daugherty


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Per the nomination and the Delete votes, there does not appear to be enough reliable secondary sourcing to prove the notability of this musician. Black Kite (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Tommy D. Daugherty

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

The subject has been a recording engineer/mixer on several albums, most notably ones by 2Pac and Snoop Dog. If AllMusic.com is to be believed, he has also been a vocalist/guitarist on a couple of Christian pop albums. However, the WP article doesn't mention this at all, and I'm wondering if AllMusic is confusing him with another "Tommy Daugherty". I'm not convinced that this is sufficient to establish his own notability in the complete absence of any significant in-depth coverage of him in reliable independent sources or evidence of having won any awards. There is really nothing to base a biography of living person on. Below, I analyze the References in the latest version of the article. My own searches, revealed nothing better.
 * 1. Biography of Michael Daugherty on Naxos Records (copied from the unreferenced WP article). Gives no indication that the "Tom Daugherty (b. 1961)" simply listed as his one of his four brothers is the same person.
 * 2. A user-generated timeline authored by "facebooker 1314675108" and hosted on timetoast.com but misleadingly described in the reference as published by the "Iowa Journalism Association".
 * 3. An IMDB listing of an interview on a local public access television show in Iowa City with Daugherty and Ben Leinen (aka DJ 500Benz aka Doc Da Suess), with whom Daugherty is writing his as yet unpublished autobiography Stranded On Death Row: With 2Pac, Dr. Dre, and Snoop Dogg. (See  + Articles for deletion/DJ 500Benz and Articles for deletion/Trey Diggz.)
 * 4. An article about 2Pac in XXL Magazine with a brief quote from Daugherty (hosted on Scribd)
 * 5. 6. 7. YouTube videos, , of Daugherty talking about his forthcoming book and his memories of 2Pac made for various 2Pac fansites.
 * 8. 9. 10. A private Michael Jackson fansite and two personal blogs, , which simply list Daugherty's name in the credits for various albums. Note that the publisher of the latter blog is misleadingly described in the reference as "Death Row Records".
 * 11. 12. 13. Simple credit listings, , on Allmusic.com,  hitmixers.com (the website of his management ), and artistdirect.com

Note also that he is not to be confused with TommyD, a British record producer and songwriter. Voceditenore (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Voceditenore (talk) 05:14, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Voceditenore (talk) 05:21, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Keep The Article To me, the sources are journalistic in nature, clearly demonstrated by the question/answer style documentary of JMIX and others. I've sited TV Show (local yes, but still), Sony Documentaries (WORLDWIDE), All music.com credits which is valid, any many other types of documents/articles across the net. There is reliable information, and established publications (such as XXL Magazine and Sony Picture's TUPAC RESURRECTION). The deletion is highly unwarranted, and you're being very picky about the links even though when you google TD a million things come up.

Again, Mr. Daugherty was also all over wikipedia already BEFORE THIS PAGE'S CREATION. A page would help box all this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docdasuess (talk • contribs) 22:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.202.226.136 (talk)

I have youtube videos of Lance Pierre and other engineers being interviewed about Tommy D as well, but I'm sure those aren't good enough either. Regardless I'm going to link one of a three part series if you have the stomach for it. www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQqKq4T01UA8&ei=G1dMUvK7MuH9iwL2mYGoBw&usg=AFQjCNGCoVwdHiAFALlGBXDRjgtG4d0s3A&sig2=-oqlmTFOw-q07yQrZBAtWA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docdasuess (talk • contribs) 17:28, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I have plenty of retail documentaries establishing TD as 2Pacs C.E. Most of them can even be seen on youtube, but that doesn't mean they are any less documentaries. If you would like the titles of these im willing to give them to you. "Tupac Hip Hop Genius" and "Thug Angel" for one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docdasuess (talk • contribs) 17:32, 2 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.202.226.136 (talk)

The XXL article, Allmusic, and Resurrection. Hitmixers is not Tommy's management, as you can see WORLD'S END MANAGEMENT was his company (its in the Michael Jackson pieces I both uploaded and shared links to.) HITMIXERS was a website set up by Death Row in its later years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.202.226.136 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 3 October 2013‎ (talk) 08:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Since you have pasted in a signature for User:Docdasuess in your first comment, I assume you are that editor and are editing while logged out. Please log in to your registered user name when commenting here and when editing articles. Please also read WP:SIGN which explains how to sign your comments properly. Voceditenore (talk) 08:20, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Observe the homepage of hitmixers.com and the list of artists it represents in the upper left hand corner. Then click on the link. That's what you used for a reference. The exact same page appears at the url http://www.tommyddaugherty.com. This is not an independent source, regardless of the url, and moreover it is simply a credit listing. Voceditenore (talk) 08:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Delete the lack of significant verifiable tertiary sources seems to indicate that the subject does not meet wikipedia's notability guidelines. I agree with voceditenore's assessment.4meter4 (talk) 04:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

≈ Allmusic.com is plenty verifiable. It's one of the biggest music websites on the net. It made some mistakes because theres 2 tommy ds but generally it's right. Don't believe me? Discogs.com

Now you should do your research on discogs, because it is similar to wiki, in that it has a submission process before peoples credits get APPROVED. www.discogs.com/artist/Tommy+D.+Daugherty‎. These are not generated profiles by the sources, they are generated by Discogs.com. I find this combined with Allmusic, combined with Hitmixers (which despite it's claim, is not affiliated with TD., but may have been with Death Row) to be enough to provide the credits.

The XXL interview establishes Tommy D. at Death Row and working with Dre, (as well as album credits which I've submitted through Jpegs, although incorrectly due to my misunderstanding via the website, it's clear that Tommy D has been on alot of records)

Jmix Video Series seem to me to be good enough, who is a self described 'journalist.' Look Jmix up. The medium is video, but youtube is just the delivery. https://www.facebook.com/Jmixinsider. He runs a youtube channel that is more popular. He has interviews with Lance Pierre, and others who talk about Tommy D. for SECONDARY sources. (see: http://www.youtube.com/user/jessesurratt)  The websites he produces the videos for is http://truthabouttupac.com/ & http://www.bomb1st.com/  as can be seen here:  http://www.bomb1st.com/interviews/

The documentary "THUG ANGEL" retail release, can be seen here on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY4jtASsZpo  Again, youtube is not the source, the documentary is, but you can see the documentary at that link. Same with Tupac Resurrection Documentary.

There's plenty to establish Tommy D, who was already listed numerously on wiki. He has over 250 credits.

Docdasuess (talk) 04:34, 4 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess


 * Are you saying that the subject of this article is not the Tom Daugherty who appears of the AllMusic credits for the Christian pop albums? And could you also explain why you removed my comment concerning the posts which were added here by an IP who pasted in your signature and a false time stamp? Voceditenore (talk) 05:14, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

And Tommy D's credits are on multiple Tommy D profiles on allmusic, for some reason they have listed him with more than one page. Here's part 1 of his profile: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/tommy-daugherty-mn0000934071/credits Part 2: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/tommy-d-daugherty-mn0000514853/credits and so on and so forth. Docdasuess (talk) 05:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess
 * Because i edited it and put a time stamp on it as u request sir.

A final crux to this deletion appeal: See Tommy D on Don Kill profile on MTV WEBSITE: http://www.mtv.com/artists/don-killuminati/biography/ Docdasuess (talk) 06:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

2Pac Resurrection: Archive footage Tommy D gave to filmmakers for 2Pac Resurrection. From Can AM Studios: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLRQuCOiwVA  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docdasuess (talk • contribs) 06:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The MTV "profile" is sourced from Wikipedia and clearly says so on the bottom of the page. It is not about Daugherty. It is about a 2Pac recording and merely lists Daugherty in the credits. Docdasuess, no one is questioning the fact that he has been an engineer/mixer etc. on various albums or parts of them for notable artists (although, clearly not all the credits listed for him in various sources are actually referring to this person). The question being addressed in this discussion is: In the absence of any non-trivial independent coverage of this person, e.g. newspaper or magazine articles about him (not the artists he has worked for), programs on mainstream broadcast media devoted to him (not the people he has worked for), etc. is it possible to establish his notability independent of the people he has worked for, let alone write a verifiable biography of a living person? My view is no. Others may disagree. We'll see how the discussion evolves. Voceditenore (talk) 06:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Many cites confuse the Gospel TD, the Electronic TD, and the rap/funk/rock TD, the latter of which we are discussing.

Here is a source more closely to what you're looking for given you're text, in your last message. Again from Jmix. Engineer Rick Clifford, talking about Tommy D. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvXnzNxq7Lc

Also, I have a magazine from 1992 KORG MAGAZINE, which features an interview with both Keith KC Cohen and Tommy D Daugherty. I can cite it. So he has been interviewed by major publications, some of which failed to make it online, but exist nonetheless.[Special:Contributions/107.202.226.136|107.202.226.136]] (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

I looked into the Hitmixers issue. It is not Tommy's MGMT, I found it it is none other than SKIP SAYLOR's Studio home page. Skip is a studio owner in Hollywood, who has Tommy listed as an on call engineer. So the discography is written by Skip, with no connection to Tommy D, other than Tommy having worked in his studio for Skip during the Death Row Days. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2013 (UTC)docdausess
 * As I said, the identical page appears at the url http://www.tommyddaugherty.com, which is registered to Daugherty . This is not an independent source, regardless of the url and regardless of who made the page, Daugherty or the studio that was employing him. Moreover, it is simply a credit listing and does nothing to establish his notability. If it has no information that isn't already covered in another reference, I suggest you remove it from the article. Voceditenore (talk) 15:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I presume you are referring to one of the in-house magazines of the Korg Corporation? Which one–ProView? What is the exact title of the Korg article, the name of the author, date of publication (month and year), and exact page numbers? I've underlined "exact title" because there has been a lot of misrepresentation of sources so far. What is the information in the Korg article that could be used expand the biographical information in the Wikipedia article? Voceditenore (talk) 15:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:18, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll get that info to you today. I just looked at Isaac Hayes III profile, which is basically a joke. I think this has much more depth to it, and would like to have you reconsider it's deletion. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 15:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

PROVIEW: Korg Magazine: // Summer '93 //Issue 3 // Pg 54-55 //Working Tracks With Tom Daugherty //In-Print

Good Day Sunshine // Liverpool Productions // September 1993 Edition // Issue #71 //Volume II // Charles F Rosenay // Pgs. Multiple articles //Keith Casey and Tom Daugherty "Off The Wall" // In-Print

If these In Print sources are not enough, I can make photocopies. These are articles by publications that interview or focus on Tommy outside of who he has worked with. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 11:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

A Picture from user Djtommyd of his article. Again as user Voceditenore as requested, this is an article about Tommy outside of who he has worked with. This seems to fit within the scope of wikipedia's guidelines. Move to keep article? Docdasuess (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess


 * Questions: From the image User:Djtommyd has uploaded (to which incidentally, he does not own the copyright), "Working Tracks With Tom Daugherty" does not appear to be the exact title of the article itself. What is it? The other page is missing, but it appears to be something like: "something something... with Pop and R & B's Hottest Track Doctor" and appears to be about Keith Casey. Apart from a brief mention in that article "Keith leaves the technical details of his craft to sidekick Tom Daugherty", Tommy D appears only in a sidebar to the article talking about the Korg equipment he's using. The sidebar is by Daugherty, not about him. Its actual title is "Working Tracks With Wavestation A/D". Also is the exact title of the Good Day Sunshine article  "Keith Casey & Tom Daugherty 'Off The Wall'"? Or is that simply your interpretation of what it is about? There have already been shenanigans in this article with what appear to be deliberately misleading references for online resources. If you are going to use offline print sources, then you must be scrupulously honest and accurate about them. Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep I've uploaded some creative commons that I've collected with permission from the publications themselves that I think you'll find interesting. Great article.  I appreciate you going for accuracy.  I'm new to wikipedia but I would love advice on how to post more to establish the page.  Thank you. Djtommyd (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)Djtommyd — Djtommyd (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Yes, I imagine you would. Have you read WP:Autobiography? Voceditenore (talk) 16:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Not writing anything on my bio. Just uploading tools so others can meet wikipedia's guidelines Djtommyd (talk) 11:14, 9 October 2013 (UTC)docdsuess
 * Having an obvious associate of yours write it is tantamount to the same thing. I suggest you both read that article as well as WP:Conflict of interest. – Voceditenore (talk) 15:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - Has worked on many significant albums, and turns up many hits on both GoogleNews archive, and GoogleBooks.  STATic  message me!  14:30, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:43, 10 October 2013 (UTC)



We have three keeps and one delete. I move to take the deletion notice off. Korg magazine establishes Tommy in a singular way, paired with the Keith Casey Cohen piece, now cited on the wiki page. Combined with all the other sources, I feel like we have a good base for the article. There's a lot of records with his name. Any disagreements? 107.202.226.136 (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess
 * Yes, I disagree. Only one "Keep" is from an editor without a conflict of interest. The other two are by the article's subject and you, his associate. There are two "Deletes", mine as nominator and one other from a non-involved long-term editor. You don't "vote" to close an AfD, and it will not be decided by a "vote" either. It will be closed by an administrator based on the arguments presented and his/her assessment of the consensus. Docdasuess, surely you must know that by now. This is the third AfD you have been involved in (see Articles for deletion/DJ 500Benz and Articles for deletion/Trey Diggz). Also the Korg reference you have added has a clearly spurious and misleading title, which I am about to correct. It is a side bar in an article about another engineer in the in-house magazine of Korg Corporation. The sidebar is by Tommy D in which extols the virtues of Korg's equipment, not about him. – Voceditenore (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Also will you please answer my question above concerning the exact article title in the Beatles fanzine Good Day Sunshine? Is it really "Keith Casey & Tom Daugherty 'Off The Wall'"? Or is that simply your interpretation of what it is about? You have already added several references to the article with what appear to be deliberately misleading descriptions. Voceditenore (talk) 17:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

My two deletions in the past were valid and i did not fight them once they were deleted. This one clearly has some validity. As far as my vote not counting thats ridiculous. I'm not an associate of Tommy D. Just a journalist typing this up. The Korg Magazine is part of a larger piece with both Tommy and Keith which if I must I can dig up the other half. Clearly the references are pointing in one direction and follow the guidelins you've suggested. I'd urge you to reconsider. You're being awful nit-picky when there is a tundra of material to go off of. It's 3 to 1 right now, and let any unaccounted for party speak for themselves on here. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 18:01, 10 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

STATicVerseatide seem to be a decorated authority on hip hop if you take a look at his profile. Again, I implore you to let any unaccounted for party speak up if someone else disagrees. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 18:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess
 * Delete Too many walls of text posted above by persons apparently connected to the subject of the article. Does not appear to satisfy WP:BIO or Notability (music). Sources should be reliable and independent of the article subject. Working on some notable project does not automatically make one notable, since notability is not inherited. Edison (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

New reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxLS58TOLdU 107.202.226.136 (talk) 19:24, 12 October 2013 (UTC)docdasuess

If you look at Dave Aron's page Dave Aron has myspace and all music as his sources, and his page is still active. I think this page has as much credibility. 107.202.226.136 (talk) 00:30, 13 October 2013 (UTC)docdausess


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Re the latest comment from User:Docdasuess (who for some reason refuses to log into his account when contributing here ). Plenty of articles exist that probably should not. Equally, a lot of articles do not exist that probably should. That is not a valid argument for keeping this article. The Dave Aron article is utterly dire in terms of its style, tone, and poor referencing. However, there are plenty of reliable independent sources out there (mainstream news media as well as specialised press like Jazz Times, Billboard, CMJ New Music Monthly), which attest to his notability and can be easily added to the article. I know because I have subscriptions to news archives, and I checked them, as I did for Daugherty before filing this AfD. But again, you keep coming up with more YouTube videos produced for 2Pac fansites and are trying to assert that the article's subject is notable because he worked for notable people.


 * In my view, the only two references that might conceivably attest to his notability were added by me—this one and this one. But even here, the first is an article in a local paper from 1992 about how he had gone to Hollywood, found work as a synthesizer technician, and now "mingles with stars". The second is a book about Dr. Dre briefly quoting Daugherty and identifying him as the engineer who worked on All Eyez on Me. It's possible that some uninvolved editors might consider this + the credits enough, and I welcome the re-listing of this debate. Voceditenore (talk) 08:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.