Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Top 100 meter times by NFL players


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The keep votes did not properly assert why the list was notable ina way that could move the scales to their side. However, the delete votes did explain why the list was not notable.  → Call me  Hahc  21  01:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Top 100 meter times by NFL players

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Textbook example of Original research. Almost all these meter times weren't within official NFL rules, but times of athletes who happened to later become NFL players for the most part in track meets so WP:NOT applies as well. No reliable sourcing that talks about this grouping as a whole. Delete Secret account 00:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom, this is original research. Northern Antarctica (₵) 04:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)


 * If the motivation for the "grouping as a whole" seems unclear, this article attempts to show how NFL players (from all decades) rank in terms of an objective speed standard. There seems to be a lack of crossover knowledge by many NFL fans of track and the factors which influence recorded times (wind, altitude, hand timing).  This is evidenced by 100m times listed on many wikipedia pages for NFL players.  People seem to just take the fastest time known (or rumored), and not bother to cite if it was wind-aided.  The list originated as cited, and I thought wikipedia would be a good place to host it, because others could update it as new times are run.  It has nothing to do with "official NFL rules".  It is about speed, objectively measured.  - ClintCummins, 7 April 2014  — Preceding undated comment added 21:23, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. A good faith addition, but it's not a notable topic and is clearly original research. Perhaps the author could move it to a more appropriate wiki. Pburka (talk) 03:24, 8 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete. OR and the NFL isn't interested in this particular statistic. I mean, how many times does someone rip off a 100 yard (not meter) run (other than Devin Hester)? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:25, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Addendum. Also WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe you'll find it passes WP:NOTSTATSBOOK: "To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." This list article does that.--Paul McDonald (talk) 10:58, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep no way in the world is this original research. The editor didn't go out and personally time these runs, they were looked up from multiple third party sources and then assembled in a table.  Every one of them.  This clearly falls under WP:CALC as acceptable with details at essay WP:COUNTSORT.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * This entire topic is WP:SYNTHESIS. There's no indication that the topic of 100 meter times by NFL players has received significant coverage in reliable sources. The fact that the author had to look up the data "from multiple third party sources and then [assemble them] in a table" is evidence of synthesis. Pburka (talk) 20:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with list articles. That's how list articles get written--an editor looks up the data and then puts them in a list.  If it was all in one place, then there would be no need for the list because it exists somewhere else and the entry would be redundant or even copyvio.--Paul McDonald (talk) 22:58, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:LISTN says that a list is notable "if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". There are sources which discuss 40 yard times and the NFL. There are none which discuss 100 m times. Pburka (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely SYNTHESIS because the NFL doesn't use metric units, period. What next? List of quarterbacks who have thrown for 5000 m in a season? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * 100 m dash is one of several standard measures for speed. It's not synthesis at all.  The editor didn't dream up a race called the 100 m dash that no one has ever run before.  It's a standard measure.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Not for football, the other football, basketball, the marathon, etc. Show me a football scout who drooled over a prospect's 100 m time. Ever. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I already showed the NFL discussion of Usain Bolt, lets go back Justin Gatlin, Carl Lewis, Jim Hines and Bob Hayes (with a Super Bowl ring) are all Olympic Gold medalists in the 100 meters who got interest from the NFL. Of the American Gold Medalists since 1964 (that's 50 years ago), only Maurice Greene did not get such interest.  There are also several 4x100 meters relay gold medalists on the list, plus the Junior World Record Holder; Jeff Demps and the Masters World Record Holder (after he won a Super Bowl ring); Willie Gault.  By the way the NFL doesn't limit its search for speed to 100 meters, they also tried a 200 meter world record holder;  Tommie Smith and a 110 meter hurdles world record holder;  Renaldo Nehemiah (who got a Super Bowl ring). Trackinfo (talk) 07:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd still like to see references that say a 100m time is important measure for NFL players. All the examples that have been given just talk about scouting fast players and most of them never played in the NFL; the Gatlin article says the Texans were not going to sign him regardless. I still don't see why this list itself is notable. It's well-referenced, but none of the references talk about the list as a whole. — X96lee15 (talk) 12:57, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Every one of the people on this list played in the NFL. That is the qualifier to be on the list.  That is documentable.  Gatlin failed to make the NFL, he's not on the list.  The challenge was whether NFL scouts were interested in people with fast 100 meter times.  They clearly are.  Actually they are interested in general speed, the fast 100 meter times represent that someone has speed.  Carl Lewis, with absolutely no football experience, would not have been drafted if he were not fast as regarded by his fast 100 meter times (and his 4 Olympic Gold Medals that year).  They try to take these people on as a "project" just like NBA drafts 7' 6" people to see if they can be taught to do something with a basketball.  Some turn into Jim "Oops" Hines.  They said Nehemiah was a failure, because he didn't make a lot of catches.  But he still required double coverage whenever he was on the field, so what did that do for the rest of his team?--they did win the Super Bowl.  By the way, I'm learning more and more about this from the sources I've already listed. Trackinfo (talk) 18:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The discussion is getting cluttered with things that do not pertain to whether this list is notable, IMO. Where is a reliable source that says 100m times are notable for NFL players? — X96lee15 (talk) 18:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Here are a few articles discussing the subject from various perspectives:, , , , , , , , , , . A book with more mis-information   Even a Raiders player quoted discussing the concept:  "no team in the NFL could match-up with a possible 4x100-meter relay.  Trackinfo (talk) 01:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep This list is exactly what wikipedia does so well, an assemblage of information from multiple sources.  Contrary to the assertion above, it is a frequently discussed subject.see here, here, here here etc etc.  And without a source, if you didn't notice, most people get it wrong.  On another wiki, in the process of googling this, I had to correct the answer.  Wikipedia has the correct answer, thanks to the IP editor who created this list.

This list is extremely well sourced using respected track and field sources. It took a lot of work by some editor or editors. All-athletics.com is a reliable source. When I discovered this and added to the list, I supplemented with USATF sources, the national governing body of the sport. This information can still get improved, but it is not inaccurate. If this information were to have been copied directly from another site, that would be a copyvio.

We could get into a side issue about whether 40 yard dash times are more relevant to the NFL. That is NOT the question being answered here. When comparing between the rules or procedures of two different sports you will get conflict. NFL standards for the 40 yard dash are terrible by track and field standards, for which I had to add a special section to the world records list because editors who do not understand this concept, kept trying to put in the wrong data. Based on unreliable sources I am finding in the current google search, even our listing Deion Sanders as the record holder could be inaccurate --the system is inaccurate. Track and field measurements are much more scientific, but their shortest races are still too long for direct NFL relevance. 100 metres is the most universal distance available. Pure speed is not the only issue in comparing the athletes, NFL players wear heavy padding, and they have to be able to do something with the ball (catch it, carry it, knock it down). Even the NFL themselves pose the question of comparison. Its a popular question. Many athletes obviously have tried to cross between the two sports, some succeed and some fail.

Because great works like this have been deleted in the past, I've copied this to my sandbox. In other words, you are not going to save wikipedia one byte of data storage. If wikipedia deletionists choose to rid themselves of this information, I'll just have to find another wiki to post this information on. In the overall scheme of things, NFL trivia is not the most important thing in the world, but the world should not be prevented from having the knowledge we can accumulate by having this project we call wikipedia simply at the whim of a handful of short sighted individuals. Trackinfo (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Rebuttal. You're undermining your own position every time you try to make a point. "When comparing between the rules or procedures of two different sports you will get conflict." ==> SYNTHESIS. "...their shortest races are still too long for direct NFL relevance." ==> SYNTHESIS. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Clarity, you are using some pretty convoluted reasoning to try to come up with an excuse to deflate an argument. A statement that "Apples are not Oranges" is not a great leap into the world of synthesized opinion--its an obvious statement of fact.Trackinfo (talk) 16:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I believe that the comments are valid and worth considering.  Any comment that could be considered "synthesis" is here in AFD and not in the article itself (at least, not that I can find-and that's "editing" not "deletion" if it is there).  The comments are germane to the discussion and can help indicate how or why readers would find interest in the topic.  It speaks to notability.--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Also WP:ITSINTERESTING doesn't carry any weight. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Even discounting readership interest (I'm not saying that I find it interesting), I still disagree that Trackinfo is undermining the keep position. One or two of the statements might not apply, but the argument as a whole is worthy of being considered.  Further, my comments are not "it is interesting" but deeper into "how or why readers would find interest" which is of more value I believe.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Can we agree that NFL teams use speed as a major consideration in drafting players (especially for certain positions)? Or does that need to be proven further? Can we agree that the sport of track and field is the sport that most directly tests an athletes running speed?  Or does that need to be proven further?  With those two facts, why is the comparison between track and field's fastest (outdoor) race and NFL players illogical?  Maybe there should also be an article about tall NBA players . . . List of tallest players in National Basketball Association history  Oh look there is.  Do you want to attack that too? Trackinfo (talk) 16:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * But this isn't List of fastest players in National Football League history. There's no evidence that 100 meter times of NFL players are notable. Pburka (talk) 12:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Pburka does have a point, in that "what makes a 100 m dash" the right article? Why not the 40 m, or the 99 m, or the 101 m?  Or "the fastest players in the NFL" article.  I answer that the 100 m dash (and its historical comparison the 100 yard dash) have been widely held as a standard race.  Nobody runs a 99 m dash, at least not that I can find... and certainly not widely held and recorded.  This list shows how NFL athletes have performed in this standard measure historically and provides some additional insight and perspective.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Track and field has held races at distances from 50 yards, 50 metres, 60 metres, and other odd increments. Most of those racing opportunities occur indoors where the size of the building causes the lack of standardization--particularly back through history.  100 metres is the most universal distance where we can expect most sprinters will have had the opportunity to have run.  Even the prevalence of the 100 yard dash before metrication was offset by key races like the Olympics and Olympic Trials being held in metric distances.  All this increases the statistical relevance.  In the pursuit of deleting an article, you choose to ignore the fact that 100 meters is the best measurement of comparable athletic speed track and field has to offer.  The number of blogs discussing this concept shows a commonality of that understanding amongst the public.  An additional article discussing speed in the NFL would certainly be welcome.  This list would be an appropriate corollary.  You might also want to create a list of combine 40 yard times, which is the best the NFL has to offer.  We could also elaborate on the inaccuracy of flying start, hand times to the hundredth of a second.  There is plenty of knowledge to add. Trackinfo (talk) 03:35, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You mention "blogs discussing this concept," but can you find multiple reliable sources discussing this? If not, the topic is interesting but of insufficient notability for inclusion in Wikipedia. Pburka (talk) 18:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep The NFL Scouting Combine is a widely covered event (at least in the world of sports), and perhaps the single most covered aspect of the combine is the "pure speed" of an NFL prospect. Although the 40 yd dash is the event used, the 100m is comparable. What I think this article needs is a summary of secondary sources showing that "speed" is a much discussed topic by reliable sources (e.g. an ESPN article talking about how NFL front offices value the 40 yd dash time). For example, former Raiders owner Al Davis was perhaps the NFL decision-maker most known for being enamored with speed, and supposedly this played a role in the Raiders drafting Nnamdi Asomugha, Michael Huff, and Darrius Heyward-Bey, among other prospects. I have no doubt that these articles exist, and if I were less busy right now, I would add them myself. Orser67 (talk) 23:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Your rationale is pure WP:OR Secret account 17:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep per Paul McDonald's discussion, including that lists in Wikipedia are great at this kind of stuff. Didn't consult other Keep votes.  I thought I just saw this topic in Yahoo News, actually.  I think think in the last day or two there was some significant news coverage, but maybe it was about 40 yard dash times of athletes up for drafting.  The topic is notable;  maybe need another article on 40 yard or 40 meter times, too.  Or should that be another table in a renamed list-article, something like Best sprint times by NFL players? :) -- do  ncr  am  00:49, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:ILIKEIT Secret account 17:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:SYNTHESIS. I haven't seen any reliable sources that talk about the subject of NFL players running the 100m dash. All the sources given in the article are reliable, but they are combined to form an article that is not notable. Maybe the article can be reformed to cover fastest 40-yard dash times of NFL players (which is probably notable). This article is an example of an editor creating a topic they think is notable, but with no reliable sources to establish its notability. — X96lee15 (talk) 11:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, well several people including you agree that the topic of fastest NFL players is a notable topic. So shouldn't this be Kept?  And edited to include fastest 40 yard or 40 meter times / probably moved to a slightly different title.  Seriously, this should be kept and adapted.  A table of fastest 100 meter times is fine to keep included.  About fastest 100 times of NFL player, here is this wikianswer Q&A, this YahooAnswer Q&A, and this about a 100m Olympian (within 4x100 relay) becoming an NFL player, and there's more.  The 40 yard or 40 meter is more important, but the 100 is indeed often measured / known / asked about.
 * About fastest 40 yard or 40 meter times of NFL players, there are many sources explicitly about the topic, including this at statisticbrain, this at bleacherreport, [this photo set at NFL.COM]. According to the first of those, "The 40 yard dash has long been a way of evaluating the speed of football players by scouts for the NFL Draft. The origin comes from the average distance of a punt being 40 yards." -- do  ncr  am  18:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If this were Top 40 yard times by NFL players I would say keep. But it's not, and it can't be changed into that without deleting all the content and starting over. 100 m times are not relevant to 40 yard times. Pburka (talk) 20:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I've added about 15 sources to this discussion, so far you have loudly expressed your opinion, without citing a single source. Trackinfo (talk) 00:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * My position is that there is no significant coverage in reliable sources showing that comparisons of 100 m times are relevant to the NFL. I can't cite a source, as the key to my argument is that such sources do not exist. You've provided some forums showing that fans are interested in this comparison (this is irrelevant), and showing that some NFL players have run 100 m races (also irrelevant - I'm sure some have also run marathons). For example, one of your purported sources is actually about 40 yd times and then mentions, almost as a non sequitur, that the Jamaican 4x100 team would probably beat any team the NFL put together. Do you have any reliable sources comparing the 100 m times of NFL players or prospects? Pburka (talk) 00:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.