Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toriel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Undertale. ✗ plicit  12:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Toriel

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Reception for the subject shows no notability, in fact it could be more seen as reception for the game itself. Doing a WP:BEFORE shows that's the case across the board: any discussion is strictly in the context of the game and its story, and not a proper examination or discussion of the character. While there's some discussion about a possible character list, I feel what's here is fine to redirect to the parent game for now, and any usable reception cited in it if workable. Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements and Video games. Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:29, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Creator keep Standalone notable character, passes GNG. Kill Screen has 4 paragraphs discussing Toriel as part of an article about video game moms. The Greatest Stories Ever Played: Video Games and the Evolution of Storytelling has multiple pages discussing Toriel and how the possibility of killing her is given more impact due to the preceding events. The Game Designer's Playbook p.58-59 also has several paragraphs talking about how she is a good tutorial that sets up herself as a boss. Ethics at Play in Undertale, a paper with 11 citations, has numerous pages discussing Toriel starting at page 2. I think even ignoring all the other sources, these prove that it does not need to be merged, though there are definitely many other book mentions due to her boss fight's prominence as one of Undertale's most well-known moments. Her article is not the most well developed at the moment, but WP:SURMOUNTABLE and WP:NODEADLINE. AfD is not the right place for a reckoning for any notable character below a certain standard. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:06, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * But you yourself are pointing out the very observation I made: the sources focus on how it acts as a tutorial for the game itself and the significance in that context. The slight outlier is Kill Screen, but even there it's framed in the context of how the game subverts your expectations and primarily relays what we already learn during that sequence. The rest can be used just as easily for the game and don't define her importance as a character *outside* of that game itself, or any study of her character or design. The article could just as easily be written "Undertale tutorial" and achieve the same results, and express just as little notability separate of the game itself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Toriel IS the tutorial. It's in the name. Unlike most games, in Undertale it's intrinsically linked to a character, where she is directly giving the protagonist advice on how to play, framed diegetically within the game's universe. I would not agree that it's only about "Undertale tutorial" due to how completely the character encompasses the tutorial segment. For the entire Ruins (i.e. tutorial) part you are mostly talking to her, and she disappears for most of the rest of the game. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:39, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of that. But you wrote this about the character herself: how's she important or discussed outside of that Zx?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge. I'm not convinced that there is much to Toriel that isn't tied into the game, based both on what is there and my source search. To me, it's telling that all but one article is about Undertale. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 12:58, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * redirect to undertale. Tunni327 (talk) 11:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE. ✗ plicit  12:19, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:JUSTAVOTE applies here. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect Fictional characters need to make an impact on the outside world to be notable. Despite being a major character in the beginning and at the very end, I'd say this character's role in the game is about as impactful as Sans, Papyrus, Undyne, or even Alphys. The sources are good for a merge to "Fandom" under the "Cultural impact" section. I do not think it warrants an entire article though. Conyo14 (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the lede summarizes how the character impacted the outside world - "The character has received attention from critics and fans for her personality as well as the atypical moral choice of her boss battle." And, as shown in reception, "Nathan Grayson of Kotaku stated that while he killed Toriel during his playthrough, his encounter with her made him cry due to her friendliness and relatability as a character." This is real-world impact without a doubt. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:37, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree that she had an impact, I disagree it warrants an entire article. I feel this can be condensed to the section of Undertale. The rest is plot (primary or tertiary source material only). Conyo14 (talk) 15:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge selectively. Extremely bloated, especially with in-universe story stuff. Some mentions of the important stuff in the gameplay (the tutorial) and a shout-out in the games reception section is plenty. Sergecross73   msg me  13:36, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge. Article contain mostly in-universe stuff and the "gameplay" source could be instead merged at Undertale.  Greenish Pickle!   (🔔) 16:05, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Create an article called List of characters in Undertale or Characters of Undertale, and merge to a section there. The notability of Undertale characters as a group is sky-high; I'm sure we could have enough critical, sourced commentary for such an article to be valid.  While I'm not sure Toriel stands alone, I think there's absolutely enough material for her to have her own section on a list article.  (I'm not a fan of the recent move away from such list spin-off articles...  I think they can work very well as a compromise when there's clearly notability-as-a-group but that doesn't easily rise to giving one specific character their own article.)  I think that "merge" votes to Undertale as a whole would result in either the Undertale article being overstuffed with character detail, or valid referenced material getting lost.  SnowFire (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * There was a discussion here about such a character list, and while it was considered a decent idea concerns that it'd just end up a coatrack article were also raised. In this case I think the relevant information from this article merged into the game wouldn't cause a massive bloat however, as really the most that needs to be carried over is the tutorial reception which can be retooled towards them game easily.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think COATRACK is a good analogy. A section about a character of Undertale, in an article called "Characters of Undertale", is perfectly on-topic.  COATRACK is about "sneaking" in content from something non-notable into something notable, like if the article Music of Undertale had a long section about some minor collaborator with Fox on the music and their life story.  The valid concern would be complying with WP:LISTCRIT and WP:CSC - but "notable as a group, but individually non-notable" is one of the direct examples in CSC that would justify inclusion of Toriel as a section.  To be sure, I assume that the worry is really "what if this includes every single character, including Bob the Temmie," but that's just common sense & maintenance.  SnowFire (talk) 20:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Well might be a good discussion to elaborate on in that discussion I linked. I do think here though Sergecross is right: the article is bloated, and very little needs to be copied over, and a concern that a character list should be made to WP:PRESERVE the info is minor.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge to Undertale or a separate char list. Lack of significant dev details and reveption puts her in context of the game rather than as a standalone char. M asem (t) 15:16, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge into Undertale or a character list, per Masem. NegativeMP1 (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.