Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Traditions of the University of Santo Tomas


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. There are significant concerns that the article contains large amounts of trivia, supported only by routine, short-term, and very local news coverage and university newspapers. In this discussion there are calls for deletion, merging, redirecting, and substantial rewriting. All of the participants have provided well reasoned rationales for their opinions, but with opinions so spread out I cannot see a consensus for outright deletion. The discussion of whether to merge, and if so, what to merge, with the university article, is best left to editors' discretion. Note that unless further work is made to address the concerns made here it is likely that the article will be renominated for deletion at some point. Sjakkalle (Check!)  18:49, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Traditions of the University of Santo Tomas

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I redirected this article because I could not identify sources which were not either primary or non-regional according to WP:N/WP:NORG. My redirect was contested. I continue to hold the belief that an examination of the sources will show that the sources are indeed low quality, so I am submitting this article to AFD. Izno (talk) 16:50, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:54, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:55, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep if it can be trimmed down of the trivia and cruft. If not then delete it. It's a prestigious university, but its traditions are not anything that important. Bearian (talk) 13:56, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how the gist of your comment is anything but "delete" given that, unless you or the article creator put the work in, that anyone will clean it up. --Izno (talk) 11:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you. My partner's nephew attended this university, which has a good reputation, but I don't know where to begin editing, so I alerted the relevant WikiProject to work on it. Bearian (talk) 13:49, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 20:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:46, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:46, 12 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Nobody outside the university and its alumni have any interest in this from what I can see. This isn't the Boat Race or even the University of Chicago Scavenger Hunt. The high points are already listed in University of Santo Tomas. We certainly don't need the full lyrics of the school song. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:27, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * But then again, Fair Harvard exists. UST is not Harvard, but would you need Harvard's full lyrics song? And too, the problem of the editor who nominated the article for deletion was the lack of credible sources. The article has more than 40 sources when it was nominated. I have substantially added reliable sources and substantially overhauled the article. The article already has 59 sources to date. Also, I dont have a clue or I am not interested with the Boat Race or the Scavenger Hunt, because I'm from the other side of the world. Readers of this article are from Asia and Philippines. I'm pretty sure, Asians or the Filipinos will be more interested reading this article than reading the traditions thats happening across the globe. Anyway, the popularity of Traditions of University of University of Santo Tomas vs. the popularity of the traditions of your first world universities is not the issue here. It is the lack of sources which I am now addressing. Pampi1010 (talk) 11:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment. As the main author, I have added significant reliable sources from leading news agencies in the Philippines, such as ABS-CBN News and Current Affairs, GMA Network, Philippine Daily Inquirer, Philippine Star, Rappler, and other online media. To date, there are 62 sources, and half are derived from the aforementioned national news agencies. The reason for the nomination for deletion was lack of notable sources, and not the "uninteresting" content, as one editor mentioned. Also, there are no sources from personal blogs. I am updating the article everyday.Pampi1010 (talk) 09:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment - this could potentially be merged with the article on the University of Santo Tomas, unless one thinks it is too long for that and merits its own article. Vorbee (talk) 10:52, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment. The following articles exist:
 * University of Alabama traditions - with 15 sources
 * Auburn University traditions - with 35 sources, it practically lists all the lyrics of their cheers and battle songs
 * Carnegie Mellon University traditions - 18 sources
 * Columbia University traditions - with 7 sources
 * Louisiana State University traditions - with 31 sources
 * Rutgers University traditions and customs - with 30 sources
 * Traditions of Texas A&M University - with 112 sources
 * There are just some university articles focusing on their university traditions. They are allowed to exist. They are allowed to stay even with minimal sources. This article has 62 sources and is better cited than these aforementioned articles. Pampi1010 (talk) 03:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 * The bigger question for me is, even granting that we look at this in the context of Philippine society and culture (that is, disregarding the US-centric articles you cited), are these UST traditions notable enough for Filipinos that they merit their own article? Compared to, say, UP's Oblation Run or the Ateneo–La Salle rivalry. Are many (if not all) of these already well-known to most Filipino readers inside and outside Metro Manila? --- Tito Pao (talk) 07:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Merge some parts into University of Santo Tomas, delete the rest. There are perhaps very few university traditions among Philippine universities and colleges that might merit their own article and are well-reported (for instance, the Oblation Run and the Ateneo-La Salle rivalry) that they justify having their own articles. Of the many traditions listed in this article about UST's traditions, there may be a couple that might deserve at least inclusion in the main University of Santo Tomas article, but I have reservations about the others that are probably known only to UST students and alumni but not the rest of Metro Manila (if not the Philippines). Unless there is a more convincing argument for putting these university traditions into an article of its own, I'd vote to have this article deleted entirely, and merge only those truly notable sections into the UST article (until such time that one or a few of these traditions will have sufficient justification for having its own article.) --- Tito Pao (talk) 08:02, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment. If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. This article contains more than 60 sources, half are independent sources. The Philippine-related articles mentioned previously, the Oblation Run and the Ateneo-La Salle rivalry, have 50+ and 30+ sources respectively. And way previously, the University of Chicago Scavenger Hunt, has 37 sources, 18 of which came from the University of Chicago itself. Again, this article has at least 30 updated, reputable, reliable, independent sources. Clearly, the traditions listed in the University of Santo Tomas have more significant coverage, compared to these three, source-wise, right? Pampi1010 (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. Although they're buried in the many, many references to The Varsitarian (UST's own newspaper), this article does have more than enough reliable secondary sources to support its inclusion on Wikipedia. The point about there being numerous similar articles about US-based universities' traditions is well-made, if a touch other stuff exists-y; I wouldn't have guessed such traditions would merit articles here, myself, but if the sources are there... — GrammarFascist  contribs talk 04:49, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Update. The article has 78 sources - 42 of which are reliable, secondary, and independent of the subject.Pampi1010 (talk) 08:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   15:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Update The article now has 80 sources - 44 reliable, secondary, and independent. When this was nominated for deletion, it only had 52. I want to save this article.Pampi1010 (talk) 17:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Selective Merge - I'm not opposed to keeping a separate article, but the incredible amount of trivia added to the article is WP:UNDUE. Without the trivia, a stand-alone article isn't really necessary. Power~enwiki (talk) 01:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Inquiry - Which trivia are you referring to? Anyway, I am sensing that you are referring to the lists and tables, so I have significantly trimmed them down. I will continue to do so. Just please wait. Pampi1010 (talk) 08:39, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment - To the next editor who will decide on the fate of this article. The editor who nominated this for deletion said, I redirected this article because I could not identify sources which were not either primary or non-regional according to WP:N/WP:NORG. So because of that, I looked for sources, from the original 50+ sources, this article now has 80 sources, to which 44 are reliable, secondary sources. His issue has already been resolved. That editor did not nominate the article because of the content, not because of the trivia too. Almost all of the content here are supported by those 44 reliable articles. The others are supported by university-based publications. Meanwhile, there are 4 tables here, and based on WP:TRIVIA, the 4 tables are not trivia as they are selectively populated list with a relatively narrow theme. The Traditions of Texas A&M University, where I patterned this article from, contains a lot of trivia, because thats what you get from an article based on traditions. You expect everything to be trivial. But, to counter that, significant amount of sources have already been provided. Again, the problem with the sources has already been addressed. Pampi1010 (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.