Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trialeti Ossetia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Changes in page title and to page render most deletion issues moot. lifebaka++ 15:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Trialeti Ossetia

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It is most probably a good faith translation of the homonymous entry from Russian Wikipedia, but the original article as well as the translation is not sourced. The only cited reference is groups.yahoo which does not qualify as a reliable source.

Trialeti Ossetia seems to be an irredentist concept invented at certain web forums. There are no scholarly sources which would prove the existence of this entity/concept, however. I did a search through Google Books in both English and Russian, but got no results. Google Search yields no results as well. Although Googling in Russian does produce 37 or so hits, nearly all of them are web forums and there’s not a single academic resource among them. KoberTalk 15:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as a nom.--KoberTalk 05:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have noticed this fact. However, the Ossetian enclave, surely, exist and allegedly even was proposed to be autonomized. I think that this fact should be reflected in Georgian or at least Ossetian historical books or articles. So, Kober, some facts from the late history could be removed, but I think that concept of an article about Ossetian enclave could be backed by census data or something else.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 17:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In this discussion someone says about Tsutsiev's historical atlas, where territories claimed by South Ossetian Revkom are represented. A map, cited in article, possibly is from this atlas, so at least one publication (Tsutsiev, 2004) was done to designate this enclave.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 17:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ossetian villages surely exist in the area, but the title and content of the article are problematic. I've never met the term "Trialeti Ossetia" in any scholarly account of the region's history. The website you are citing is just a web forum. It cannot be considered a reliable source.--KoberTalk 18:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. But may be the map they refer can Tsutsiev, 2004? It has something like date-line. And possibly this is an only source of such term.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 18:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In fact, I'm strongly oppose deletion, but I will not object if some facts from yahoo groops will be removed and article will be renamed to something like Ossetian enclave in Trialeti.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 18:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Tsutsiev, Artur (2007). Atlas etnopoliticheskoy istorii Kavkaza (1774-2004). Evropa. ISBN 978-5-9739-0123-3. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 18:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * But we cannot construct an encyclopedic article and the entire story about a supposed "enclave" based on a single map. That would be WP:OR. And I'm not sure about the authencity of Tsutsiev's work. Is not it dubious that the concept "Trialeti Ossetia"  appears only in a single 2007 publication by an Ossetian PhD? --KoberTalk 18:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely, something should be about this area with other name at least in Georgian. In English I've found very few sources: .--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 19:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. This paragraph says Ossetians in Trialeti "...century, when Georgia was under the Russian influence, Russian Empire, new ethnic groups came to Georgia: - Germans in south Kartli (southeast Georgia), Armenians (from Turkey) in Samtskhe-Javakheti (southwest Georgia) and Greeks and north Caucasian Ossetians in Trialeti (South Georgia). Russians (from Russia and Ukraine) also settled in Georgia at the time..."

That not means "Trialeti Ossetia". I never herd about it. It seems to be consequence of the attempt to rewright the history after the Russian invation to Georgia. Strong Delete. Geagea (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong keep.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 13:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC) As for me, article may be renamed, but the fact from the article about Ossetian enclave and attempt to autonomize it is evident. You may also remove all facts you do not found appreciate, but at least census datas and information about re-settling from not OR sources should be kept at least as Ossetians in Trialeti. For example, the same could be found in Armenians in Abkhazia.
 * Also, one can label me pro-Russian history re-writer, but I'm sure, that if the source isn't found on www, it doesn't means that it is not reliable. For example, the most of Oxford paper publishings are not available for me, however no one object to usage of them. No one can label Tsutsiev tendentious only because he is Ossetian himself, without reading of his book. Possibly, in his book he referenced some documents of SO AO Revkom or something else, used this term prior he. Of course, I'm not sure, as this book also is not available for me. But labelling this publishing tendentious a priori is not right, yeah? My offer is to change the title to something like Ossetians in Trialeti, if Trialeti Ossetia is not appreciate for you ))--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 13:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete  as per nom, again Russian propaganda and bias on Wikipedia is unacceptable. This is clearly a Original Research based on bias. Iberieli (talk) 22:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep, after the re-name, since it no longer claims "between the lines" that any part of it has an Ossetian majority - the original name was unsourced and POV. As Üñţïf̣ļëŗ already mentioned, there are more articles like that, so deleting this one would be POV. The link to the 1921 map itself is OK, but the title in the article is not: "claimed"? Er, by whom? The yahoo group link is unacceptable - if nothing else can be found (in this case a blog by an association of refugees may actually be OK, but forum discussions clearly do not constitute verifiability) the assertion it "sources" must be deleted. I do think that the language of the article needs fixing as well. However, deletion requests should not be used to correct articles, and neither should they be used in propaganda drives. One of the "Russian" (actually meaning Russian language) googles (was on a Georgian site, for goodness' sake ( -for those who do not understand Russian, the Georgian writer pointing out the map claims that Russia will use the existence of Trialeti Ossetia to keep its troups there and annex the territory to Southern Ossetia). One obviously non-pro-Ossetian source I found does not specifically say Trialeti, but refers to Gori, so taking in the Georgian forum above, we know what they are talking about. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 09:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oops, did not include any reason why the Tsutsiev book is OK in my view (it would have been better to quote the 2006 ISBN number, since the 2007 one is not readily found at serious libraries outside Russia yet), but I suppose this will do: a 2008 opinion. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 13:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If that so we are missing the articles Ossetian in Moscow, Ossetians in Sukhumi, Ossetians in Gaza ect. It is not encyclopedic article and the origin reason issuing this article, as it seen from the original name, is political. The Ossetians was wecome guests in all part of Georgia until the involvement of the Russians in the caucasus. Geagea (talk) 15:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear Geagea, left the reasons of my edits to me. Nobody have right to label me pro-Russian, or ever Russian patriot. Especially after this edits:, . So, do not draw hasty conclusions, even if they are evident for you.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 17:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Your mistake is from the Russian wikipedia. I did not point you as pro-Russian. Geagea (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course. I think we all are assuming good faith of Untifler. The source of this bias and OR is the article in ru which he used as a source. Untifler, please don't take the issue personally.


 * Now that Untifler has already renamed the article, I see creating the article Ossetians in Georgia as the only reasonable solution. It would deal with all regions of Georgia with significant Ossetian population; and Ossetians in Trialeti would redirect to it. This would prevent us from having the articles lacking context and content. Any thoughts? --KoberTalk 18:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing to object =) However, some problems, leading to long discussions may occur because of one obvious reason: there is nod world-wide decision, which Ossetians are in Georgia, and which are not. However, this article would be a great deal anyway, as the same for Armenians and Greeks. As for the attempt of autonomization, in case of this fact will be proved, it could be represented at least in South-Ossetian AO, Trialeti and Ossetians in Georgia articles.
 * As for my oppinion, if the "larger" article will be created, Ossetians in Trialeti would be an expansion for corresponding section in this larger article, to cover more aspects. For example, as Volga Tatars are separated from the Tatars article. Another example could be Green Ukraine. However, I don't insist, and if it is rationale to write a larger article, i will support you.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. I will not explaine why I vote this way because I wouldn't say anything that wasn't said above me. More eplanations should be made about this weird nomination though. God of Sins (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC).
 * Very well explained vote.--KoberTalk 17:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. The article is perfectly reasonable under the new title. The fact that there are Ossetians in that region is well know and described on the CIA sourced map in the article. With the growth of scholarly interest in the Caucasian cultures and the remarkable ethnic diversity of this region, this article is a welcome addition to Wikipedia. I'm also surprised that there's an article about the Greeks in Georgia and Assyrians in Georgia, but no article about Ossetians in Georgia proper. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Existance of the article is perfectly fine. There are articles Russians in Georgia, Armenians in Georgia, and Jews in Georgia. The latter says that there are 13,000 Jews in Georgia. I would think that there are (or were, I don't know) more than 13,000 Ossetians in Georgia (outside of South Ossetia).  So, I'm not sure why our respected Georgia affiliated WP editors User:Kober, User:Geagea, and User:Iberieli has opposed the article.  I would understand disputing factual accuracy of the article itself but I don't understand the argument that the article should not exist. Speaking fish 03:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.