Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tristan Tondino (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:03, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Tristan Tondino
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

GNG and WP:ARTIST fail. This is the first time I have seen the "collections" section used to list the museums that have refused the artist's work rather than collected it. I think that part tends to reinforce the argument for him being non notable. Previously deleted by consensus in 2007. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:42, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 22:53, 24 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - Non-notable artist who does not meet WP criteria WP:GNG nor WP:ARTIST. All I could find was social media sites and blogs, nothing of substance. Netherzone (talk) 12:58, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Following comment pasted from the AFD talk page. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

--What should we do when articles or newspaper reviews are no longer available online or when the newspapers no longer exist?Booboo the dog (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Just use the 'Cite news' template for citing offline newspapers sources. As a matter of policy offline sources are equal to online sources. Curiocurio (talk) 16:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you Curiocurio Booboo the dog (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment following up on my delete !vote above - The article was created by an SPA with an obvious COI, and has been heavily edited by another SPA, both of whom are focused on articles related to Tondino and his father. The article is WP:PROMO, just like the one that was deleted some years ago. Fails NARTIST on all four points: 1) they are NOT regarded as an important figure, nor are they widely cited by peers or successors; 2) They are NOT known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique; 3)They have NOT played a major role in creating a significant or well known work or collective body of work, nor are they the primary subject of an independent and notable work, nor multiple independent books, articles reviews that cover them in a significant way; 4) Their work is NOT a significant monument, substantial part of a significant exhibition (like solo shows at museums), they have not won significant critical attention, nor are they in permanent collections of notable galleries or museums. I could not verify any of the collections listed in the article (which are private, family members, or corporate). The museums he attempted to donate his work to did not accept it for their collections. Just because someone is an artist and has had a few shows or screenings and a couple mentions in the press, is not enough to merit an encyclopedia article. WP is not a LinkedIn equivalent. Netherzone (talk) 21:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment maybe we should be loosening the guidelines somewhat? Things that appear true: 1) this artist has had representation in reasonably significant Montreal Galleries (Kastel, Dominion); 2) This artist's work has been included in and has sold in significant Canadian Auction houses (Heffel, Levis, Ritchie); 3) this artist has had public shows (Cultural centres)   Booboo the dog (talk) 11:36, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - It seems this is the 3rd time this article has been up for deletion: the 2007 nomination states that the article was "Prodded, deleted and recreated" - making this one the 3rd nomination. It may be best to salt. As to the list above of "things that appear true": 1) the exhibitions are either unverifiable or not significant: Galerie Kastel does not list him as one of their "exhibited artists, nor does Dominion; Galerie 1225 is a "gallery" in a wine bar on the McGill Univ. campus where alumni can show their work (he is an alum); Maxwell Haus Studios & Centre St Ambroise seems to be for-rent studios and a brew pub; Nelligan is a hotel and shops; Studio St-Ambroise seem to be studios for-rent by-the-day where anyone could put up a show. I was unable to verify the Salon de la Plasticas Mexicanos exhibition. 2) works sold at auction do not establish notability, just that the artist sold some work, which is what hundreds of thousands of artists do. 3) See item 1 above. Netherzone (talk) 15:27, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment okay, sorry for the extra work I put you through Booboo the dog (talk) 16:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Problem I checked and many of your last claims Netherzone are actually untrue unfortunately. For example, Gallery 1225 was never affiliated with McGill and the owner reopened under the name NuEdge. This artist did have an exhibition in 2002 at Kastel Gallery and the gallery closed in 2006. While I am know longer certain this artist is notable by wiki guidelines, your research is problematic. Perhaps a Montrealer could weigh in here? Booboo the dog (talk) 10:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure, I will weigh in to say that this artist is not notable by our standards, and that this long discussion of such an extremely minor artist is a waste of editor time. Good?ThatMontrealIP (talk) 10:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough but I was hoping for somebody other than you or Netherzone. I also commend you on some really exceptional work for women artists :-) Booboo the dog (talk) 12:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I see you have been reorganizing this page. I have found a few interesting items offline that I will try to organize correctly. Thank you! Booboo the dog (talk) 12:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete Okay, I was unable to find anything more than small articles in secondary or regional newspapers (I hope that doesn't offend anyone). Nothing confirms that his work has been collected by important galleries or owners of galleries. Also, thank you for your help. It's been very educational. Booboo the dog (talk) 01:17, 31 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment Hello, I created this article. I admit it may have been a mistake but I revealed that I was the major contributor to it by signing my first name. I also created the article on Gentile Tondino who clearly passes (He had a show at the MMFA, and is in a few museums. Tristan Tondino does not pass 3 of the 4 guidelines but the 4th is ambiguous. I have first-hand knowledge that he did have exhibitions at Kastel, at Galerie 1225, and that his work was in Dominion Gallery until it closed. The last curator of Dominion wrote an article describing his acceptance in the Gallery, their first meeting, and the quality of his work. Tondino's Kastel show was very large (70 paintings) half of which sold and the rest were purchased by the owners Paul Kastel and Anthony Nevin. I'm not sure whether these galleries are significant enough, but I am definitely going to improve the Paul Kastel entry because he really did work hard to promote the work of many excellent painters (e.g., Fritz Brandtner, Stanley Cosgrove, Henry Wanton Jones, John Little and the Weiselberg sisters, Rose and Fanny, and many younger painters like Raphael Monpetit, Tristan Tondino, and well... my work too). From a contemporary art perspective, it's hard to know what to do with more traditional galleries. And to be fair, Tondino is all over the place in terms of style. He did many Montreal scenes, tiny paintings of birds, Fauve-ist Plein air paintings of Italy, textual works, multiple versions of the 5 dollar project one of which did sell at auction to an unknown buyer in Empire Auction and the proceeds were given to TWKF. He has done very large paintings on construction site plywood barriers and has been attempting to donate self-referential works (Un Villain Tableau, A Painting No One Wants; A Forgery) to museums and I have a letter from the MMFA's outstanding Cheif curator who played along with the process. These are the facts. Also, because he is a multi-media artist it's not clear what the article should be focusing on. We did have two films open at the Montreal World Film Festival and this can be found online in lists other than IMDB. My general point is that while there are warnings about conflict of interest we should nonetheless focus on facts. There is a lot of material around. Finally, and I think most importantly, we have lost many interesting newspapers to the digital revolution (e.g., The Montreal Mirror, The Hour) and I think we need to be vigilant during this transition to avoid losing historically significant or interesting material. I would request, therefore, that either the article be preserved on my page until it is actually ready (I will be more detailed next time and make sure the links to important items can be found online) or that the deletion request be terminated and I will work on making certain the items are available. JOSBRU (talk) 13:40, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , how were you alerted to this deletion discussion if your old account user:Joseane that created the article has not been used in years? I would caution editors above that WP:sockpuppeting WP:meatpuppeting and even gaslighting are easy to spot; the first two usually lead to a block. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I admitted to knowing the artist very well... and his father... what else do you need? JOSBRU (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * What we need is to have neutral contributors, and you are not one.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree to a certain extent (I'm a terrible editor and don't know how to claim on the talk page that I have a conflict) but still maintain that the issue ultimately is objectivity. I want the two pages to stay but if this one goes because I haven't done this correctly then I understand and apologize JOSBRU (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * a.k.a. - Judging from the editing work that you did under your first username - in article space and sandboxes - you do indeed know how to edit - to claim otherwise lowers your credibility. You admit to a very close relationship to the subject of this article and his father. I would advise against editing the articles on galleries and gallerists who have represented or purchased Tondino's work. That too may be a conflict of interest, as they are commercial enterprises that the artist (and perhaps you) received remuneration from in the form of sales, as in the sold-out show you mention. It is not possible to maintain a neutral, objective POV in these circumstances. WP:EXTERNALREL states: "Any external relationship—personal, religious, political, academic, legal, or financial — can trigger a COI. How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense. For example, an article about a band should not be written by the band's manager, and a biography should not be an autobiography or written by the subject's spouse." You don't seem to be here to help create an encyclopedia, but rather, solely to promote Tondino and his investors and salespeople. Netherzone (talk) 21:15, 31 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.