Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tritschler brothers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. There clearly isn't a consensus to delete here, but I don't think one has formed to keep either. Relisting is unlikely to add more value, so going ahead and closing this. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Tritschler brothers

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTSCRIT #5. The brothers were three of 110 American Gymnasts who competed in the Men's artistic individual all-around, out of 119 Gymnasts, and two of them competed in one of the 12 American teams in the Men's team, out of 13 teams; given the huge number of American athletes who competed in these games there is no reason to presume that further coverage exists, even if we were permitted to make such a presumption under SPORTCRIT.

The restorer (the articles were draftified under WP:LUGSTUBS) claims that WP:SIGCOV is contained within a Sports Illustrated article, a New York Times article, and an American Profile article, but the respective coverage of the topic within those articles is:


 * 1) The last three American siblings on a team were Edward, Richard and William Tritschler, gymnasts at the 1904 St. Louis Games.
 * 2) Not since Richard, Edward and William Tritschler — remember them? — competed in gymnastics in 1904 in St. Louis have three siblings qualified for the same Olympic Games.
 * 3) In 1904, St. Louis brothers Edward, Richard and William Tritschler each qualified for the U.S. Olympic team in gymnastics, though none medaled during the Summer Games that year in their hometown.

However, with all of these being just a sentence long I do not believe that the requirements of WP:SIGCOV is met. BilledMammal (talk) 09:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Olympics,  and United States of America. BilledMammal (talk) 09:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Missouri-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:59, 5 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. I created this article out of William Tritschler, to cover him and his brothers Richard Tritschler and Edward Tritschler. As noted by (who neglected to notify me of this AfD; please notify people going forward, not everyone monitors their watchlist or is even on Wikipedia every day), all three had been draftified as part of the special group of Olympics stubs created by, primarily on grounds of being referenced only to two databases on Olympic athletes. However, the three have a point of notability as a group, which received widespread coverage in 2008. Since creating the combined article (which I also expanded with information on all three brothers that was available in the database sources and in others on the 1904 Olympics—Lugnuts' failure to write adequate articles on the subjects he started was a factor in the decision to mass draftify), I have searched for and found other 2008 coverage, which I will add today. In my view, added to their Olympics participation itself, that enduring coverage of the brothers as a group, in a variety of reliable sources, constitutes sufficient evidence of notability, brief though it is. There is also this tantalizing newspaper mention from 6 years before the St. Louis Olympics, , which I presume refers to one of the three, probably William, as a prize-winner in Turnerfests, but I can't add that because I have been unable to shake loose a first name. (The "Lange" mentioned was probably Wilhelm Lange, who won an event at the Hamburg Turnfest—extensive mentions of that win survive on Google, presumably from a news agency, and I would in the old days have considered him worth a redlink.) For athletes from so long ago, when press coverage of both their sport and the Olympics will have been in newspapers that were not distributed nationally and many of which are presumably not only not digitized but defunct, and who also competed as amateurs and thus without any commercial hype, I believe it is important that we not judge the apparent lack of contemporary coverage against the amount of coverage that would be available on an Olympian in the current era. The 2008 coverage—from both when another set of 3 siblings qualified, and when those later siblings actually competed—indicates the Tritschler brothers were still remembered. That's enduring notability, and overcomes their not having medaled and Google not being able to show me much from their careers. Yngvadottir (talk) 23:18, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Adding for clarification after seeing BilledMammal's response: I'm asserting notability under WP:GNG, not under the sports-specific notability guideline. In response to  I've since added two additional refs from a month or two later, by AP and AFP news agencies; although brief in all cases, the mentions were widespread, and not just when the other siblings initially qualified. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:23, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's enduring notability, and overcomes their not having medaled and Google not being able to show me much from their careers. But it doesn't overcome the lack of WP:SIGCOV, which is required to keep an article. At the moment, all we have are three sources each containing a single sentence of coverage that is included for no reason other than trivia; while there isn't much agreement on what SIGCOV requires, there is a broad consensus that it requires more than a single sentence. Unless you have been able to find other coverage we are not permitted to keep this article under WP:SPORTSCRIT #5, even if you believe other sources may exist.
 * (Regarding the "Turners Will Seek Prizes" article, if it is one of the brothers it will be William; Richard and Edward would have been 14 and 13 respectively, too young to compete. However, even if it is William, that article only contains a passing mention of him.) BilledMammal (talk) 02:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Regarding the clarification you added (in the future, I think it would be less confusing to add such clarification as a direct reply, rather than editing a comment that has been replied to in line with WP:TALK), the total coverage in the two sources is The Lopezes are the first three siblings to compete for the United States in the same Olympics since the Tritschler brothers, who competed in gymnastics in St. Louis in 1904 but failed to medal and The Lopez family is the first trio of siblings to represent the United States at the same Olympics since the Tritschler brothers competed in gymnastics at the 1904 Games in St. Louis 104 years ago. Although none of the Tritschlers won a medal, the Lopez family has already struck gold together when they triumphed at the 2005 world championships to become the first three siblings in any sport to claim world titles at the same competition.
 * The second is technically two sentences, but given that both sentences are focused on the Lopez's, only mentioning the Tritschler's in passing, I don't think even the most optimistic editor would argue that it constitutes WP:SIGCOV.
 * I'm asserting notability under WP:GNG, not under the sports-specific notability guideline. I'm confused; if WP:GNG is met then so is WP:SPORTSCRIT #5, as GNG requires multiple examples of SIGCOV while SPORTSCRIT #5 only requires one? BilledMammal (talk) 09:38, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. Three single-sentence mentions? Really? That's nowhere close to SIGCOV. None of those would even count toward NBASIC.
 * JoelleJay (talk) 15:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dusti*Let's talk!* 20:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A search of Tritschler turnverein from 1890-1963 in Missouri brings up about 170 matches, but the majority are in German so I am unable to read them. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking, BeanieFan11. I hadn't even thought of the German-language press; nothing from it came up in my Google search. The prize-winning is presumably in there, and possibly other citable stuff, but I can't see Newspapers.com (and my beating the bushes on Google showed it to be a not uncommon last name). Could you check for the three brothers by first name and last name? or just William Tritschler? (All three were born in the US, so I doubt they were known by the German equivalents of their first names. But there also may possibly be something under Gebrüder Tritschler, the German for "Tritschler brothers".) Yngvadottir (talk) 09:02, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:23, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep basically on IAR grounds. I completely agree the sources aren't great, and definitely wouldn't prove notability if this were the present day. Given the fact it's historical, well-written, properly sourced (even if the sources aren't great) and formerly covered by an SNG to the point where these brothers were "taken notice of," I think we make the encyclopedia worse by deleting this - and I make this argument very rarely at AfD. SportingFlyer  T · C  12:48, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree this is a keep. Still being discussed as a significant landmark in sporting history 104 years after the fact. WilsonP NYC (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A trivial landmark, we don't even have a full story on them, just a few one line mentions. Oaktree b (talk) 15:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete. There is zero coverage of the brothers in 1904-1905 newspapers in the LOC . The only mention of "Tritschler" for those two years was shop keeper that was murdered. Oaktree b (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I tried "Gebrüder Tritschler" at the LOC, as they have some German newspapers, still zero hits. Oaktree b (talk) 14:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This could perhaps be an interesting trivia bit in the 1904 Olympics article, but they don't seem notable on their own. Oaktree b (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Newspapers.com is in my opinion a better place for old sources than the LOC, and they have 170 matches for "tritschler turnverein" in the years they would have been covered. What do you think of any of those? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There is one hit from 1905 and 4 from 1907, appears to talk about brothers in general. Zero hits from 1904.I Wouldn't call it substantive coverage. It's in the old fancy German script so it's hard to get Gtranslate to read them. I can't speak German to be honest so have no idea. I'm thinking it's still trivial coverage. Oaktree b (talk) 15:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Tried it at the New York State newspaper archive, which also has a few German newspapers. Still zero hits . Tried both the German and English for brothers. I don't think this was a notable event at the time, it appears to just be a random bit of trivia someone dug up at some point and made note of it online. Oaktree b (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete doesn't have SIGCOV, which is especially surprising considering that it's just the type of random trivia the Internet loves. AryKun (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We're basically arguing for deletion on the grounds that over a century old newspapers never ran a feature story on them, which I find a bit ridiculous. They were clearly "of note." SportingFlyer  T · C  14:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Or any modern newspapers either for that matter. The NY Times in the article is a one-liner about them. It's trivial at best. Oaktree b (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Eh. I guess I'll go with an WP:IAR weak keep. SportingFlyer and Yngvadottir do have some fair points - and we might be able to consider this a very weak pass of NBASIC - as we do have some mildly in-depth Olympedia profiles on each of the brothers, plus the modern sources on them, and then the hundred-something matches in German newspapers that I located, that we haven't really been able to translate that well. In all, we do have enough material for something of somewhat decent length and this feels like a topic that should be in an encyclopedia. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.