Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/TryBishop


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was draftified by the page creator, Insularism. (non-admin closure) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 22:09, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

TryBishop

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Doesn't meet the notability guidelines for inclusion. Most of the footnoted sources don't even mention him, and the others are just lyrics and data listings, and a couple of bare mentions. A Google search turns up nothing to meet WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO. Largoplazo (talk) 01:45, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, qualifies for WP:GNG. His name appears in Vernia (album) and Auburn (singer) and T-Pain discography, and most of the featured artists in those three articles have their own articles too. Might as well delete dozens of those other articles for failing notability, but apparently they do not. Insularism (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * If they fail the guidelines, then they fail the guidelines, and those articles should be deleted too. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. It seems unlikely that one's name appearing on an album that isn't one's own album is on its own going to establish notability. Largoplazo (talk) 02:00, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am a hip hop fan who writes articles only about the artists and producers whom I feel are notable, so I am not being reckless. TryBishop's peers who are clearly on the same level of notability as him have their own Wikipedia articles too.
 * Are you saying we should nominate everything else for deletion then? By your criteria, half of all hip hop artists and producers on Wikipedia fail this policy, which is inherently unclear. Should I help you nominate everything else for deletion then? Let's take WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:GNG seriously and see half of all Wikipedia hip-hop articles get deleted. I'm ready to help you out on this one. Insularism (talk) 02:05, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that every article about a non-notable topic is subject to deletion, with notability defined through Wikipedia's guidelines on the subject. That isn't my opinion, that's a statement of Wikipedia's policy that articles be about notable topics. If there are other artists you feel inclined, in good faith, to nominate for deletion based on a failure to meet the guidelines, you should do so. Largoplazo (talk) 02:21, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I know this subject meets notability guidelines. I just read through them, like the biographical ones and singer ones. And explain WP:GNG to me. Its totally vague and unclear. We should go through WikiProject Hip Hop and flood this Articles for Deletion thing or whatever it's called, and see the whole project get destroyed. Insularism (talk) 02:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Tell me, which ones do not qualify for WP:GNG: 1500 or Nothin', Da Internz, Curtis Williams, Tech N9ne, Beatnick, Wrekonize, K-Salaam, Christopher Dotson, Vernia, Erick Sermon. I bet some of them don't. Tell me which ones specifically do not follow this vague, weird guideline. Some of them have junk references. Insularism (talk) 02:30, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am very familiar with the Midwest hip-hop scene. You and most other Wikipedia members are not. I know who is notable and who is not in this niche. TryBishop is on par with many other hip-hop artists with Wikipedia articles. This is an obvious fact. I know for certain that this article does not deserve deletion. I know better than to write up an article about some random wannabe rapper kid with no online presence. Do the research for yourself. Insularism (talk) 02:36, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:GNG says, "Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability. CHECK.
 * WP:GNG says, "Sources" should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. CHECK.
 * WP:GNG "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. CHECK.
 * WP:GNG "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, CHECK.
 * Notable? CHECK. That's how I know this is a keep. You, on the other hand, did not actually read the fine print in WP:GNG, did you? I know how to write neutral, reliable articles about hip-hop artists. I know which ones deserve articles and which ones do not. I know which ones are notable and which ones are not. Insularism (talk) 02:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * TryBishop has YouTube videos with over a million views. He has worked very closely with T-Pain and Jeezy. And so many other top rappers. Anyone who actually knows something about the hip-hop scene would be pretty darn sure that TryBishop is "notable," not just another wannabe rapper kid. Insularism (talk) 02:48, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You won't find that Wikipedia lists "I know this field and you don't" among the notability criterion. If people in the field find him noteworthy, then we need evidence of that, which will generally be in the form of "significant coverage" of the subject in multiple sources meeting the above criteriaamong which you omitted "significant coverage", yet that criterion is indispensable. As I said earlier, "Most of the footnoted sources don't even mention him, and the others are just lyrics and data listings, and a couple of bare mentions". Largoplazo (talk) 02:57, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * We do have significant coverage. Check the references and check online. And you understand what Wikipedia is? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where the goal is to collaborate on writing up notable topics of use to its intended audience. TryBishop's article is useful to people who are reading about hip hop in the Midwest. He is considered notable by people who would even care to read about such articles in the first place. That is the whole purpose and point of WP:GNG, which is to let us know that we should constructively build a useful encyclopedia that wouldn't be drowned out by random articles about non-notable high school rappers. This article is certainly useful to anyone interested in Midwest hip-hop. And check the WikiProject Hip Hop page. I am ready to go through all of Wikipedia's policies to show you why this article deserves to be kept. To anyone involved in Midwest hip-hop, this is common sense. Insularism (talk) 03:05, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Please read What_Wikipedia_is_not - In building consensus, there are times when everyone will argue that such or such change breaks their preferred rule and thus simply be made. It's a good time to apply the WP:Ignore all rules policy and focus on how the proposed change makes the encyclopedia better regardless of what the rules say.
 * Please read You can't follow all the rules, all the time - While Wikipedia's written policies and guidelines should be taken seriously, they can be misused. Do not follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter  of policies without consideration for their principles . If the rules truly prevent you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them.
 * Please read Notability in the English Wikipedia and Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia. And many more guidelines and essays on Wikipedia.
 * Like you, I am volunteering to improve this online encyclopedia. The guidelines listed above are just as valid as WP:GNG, because the purpose of these guidelines is to help us improve Wikipedia. Fanatical deletionism does not help Wikipedia improve in any way. I m 100% certain that my opinion follows the original goal and spirit of what Wikipedia's founders had in mind. Insularism (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * TryBishop is useful and notable enough for people who are coming onto Wikipedia to find out more about Midwest hip-hop. This article makes a positive contribution to the encyclopedia. Do not let literalist interpretations of vague rules like WP:GNG prevent us from making this little part of Wikipedia useful to its intended audience. TryBishop is useful information for the Midwest hip-hop crowd. His beginning rapper neighbor or dog or cat might not. Ready to keep now? Insularism (talk) 03:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Going through your talk page at User talk:Largoplazo, it's clear as day that you also have your own history of questionable judgments. You accepted other articles that probably should not have been on Wikipedia, but you are asking for this one to be deleted. I do not see any solid arguments or reasonable judgment on your side. Insularism (talk) 03:40, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The only thing it makes clear is that you aren't the first person ever to disagree with me. Of course, if you're going to write things like "We do have significant coverage" after I've already pointed out twice that the sources supplied barely mention him, or don't mention him at all, then you're going to disagree with me too.
 * As for usefulness, see WP:USEFUL.
 * Part of your argument appears to boil down to a plea for Wikipedia to cover topics that someone considers deserving of the sort of note that Wikipedia currently considers "notability". A large share of the rationale for making notability a requirement as a matter of policy and for defining it as it has been defined is precisely so we aren't sitting here debating who deserves note, who should have been given significant coverage by now in pertinent sources but who haven't been. If you want to see people's biases creeping in, that would be the way to do it.
 * In your attempt to make Wikipedia out to being exclusionary, you may not have noticed that articles about at least 206 performers have found their way into Category:Midwest hip hop musicians. Largoplazo (talk) 02:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 *  DELETE Comment - Subject fails all notability including WP:MUSIC. The coverage referenced here is not coverage but trivial mention at best. 'His name appears' does not constitute signifant coverage. A news search recommended trying 'tray bishop'. Eight pages of google search did not reveal any coverage. WP:SUBNOT advises that such articles should not exist. Wikipedia is not the place to discover the hidden gems of the midwest hip hop scene. Set up a web site to do that. ogenstein (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I see that the article is very new and perhaps some time should be granted to bring it up to standard. Consider withdrawing the nomination to provide that opportunity. ogenstein (talk) 00:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Notability is assessed based on factors external to Wikipedia. The content of an article doesn't affect notability. Largoplazo (talk) 02:13, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete; completely fails GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. As has been covered, sources establishing notability must be reliable, independent of the source, and constitute significant coverage. None pass this test. While he's assigning reading, might take a gander at WP:BLUDGEON. — Rutebega  ( talk ) 18:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment, Please at least consider a Weak keep or Neutral, because the article is certainly useful to its intended audience. This is not about WP:BLUDGEON. I am pointing out the systematic biases of Wikipedia from a normal person's perspective, which is plain obvious at Criticism_of_Wikipedia. Wikipedia is undeniably biased towards richer, more educated, white male interests. You say that TryBishop does not have significant coverage, but you need to know that a less notable educated white scientist would have more coverage due to America's systematically biased press. An African-American rapper from Flyover Country is obviously going to get less coverage than a New York business magnate, but that doesn't make the African-American any less notable because he is considered to be notable in his niche.' This article would be quite useful to people truly interested in hip-hop history, but none of you care the tiniest bit about that. You cannot apply the same Google results or press coverage criteria to African-American artists from the hood, because there is systematic press coverage exclusion and bias against this group of people. Insularism (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - Replying three times to a comment doesn't actually make it less WP:BLUDGEON.


 * FWIW, the Nobel prize for physics winner this year (e.g. educated white scientist) didn't have a wikipedia page until after the prize was awarded, and when someone submitted her name beforehand to the 'article for creation' queue, it was rejected on the issue of notability - link. ogenstein (talk) 00:21, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * A truly well curated encyclopedia should have notability determined by specialists in the field, not a tiny clique of old-time Wikipedia keyboard warriors with clearly biased interests. This is not your encyclopedia. This is the people's encyclopedia. I am taking a civil approach towards actually improving this encyclopedia, as opposed to fanatical deletionists who are cherrypicking inherently inconsistent rules so that they can push their own agenda without any transparency at all. Without any knowledge of the subject matter, the deletionists keep citing WP:GNG and WP:N-whatever to push their own deletionist agendas, which I can easily counter with 10 times as many Wikipedia guidelines and policies that are equally valid. Insularism (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Please read this article. https://boingboing.net/2017/02/16/40-of-wikipedia-is-under-thre.html Hip-hop stubs are always being picked on by Wikipedia deletionists who don't know about or care about African-American hip-hop, even artists that are known to be locally notable. Some of TryBishop's videos has received over 1 million views on YouTube, and he has worked very closely with the country's most famous hip-hop artists. He is clearly notable in his niche. If this article gets deleted, then we would really have to sit down and consider whether Wikipedia is really as free, unbiased, and uncensored as it really clams to be. It's a shame that these silly deletion attempts have to happen to such articles on Wikipedia. Insularism (talk) 20:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "This is not your encyclopedia. This is the people's encyclopedia." Is it your understanding that I am not a person? Is it your understanding that all of the folks who have collaborated over the last 15 years or so on developing and refining the extensive consensus reflected in the notability guidelines are non-people who did all that to thwart folks who are people? The guidelines are the product of community input.
 * In what way are your contributions to this discussion "civil" and, in comparison, in what way have mine been "fanatical"? This was a routine nomination on my part, with a neutrally presented rationale.
 * All of these guidelines were developed so that when it came to have discussions like these, we'd have them to point to. So it's appropriate in these discussions for us to point to them. If you don't like the guidelines themselves, then the effective place to debate them is on the talk pages pertinent to those guidelines, not in a discussion about a single article. No discussion here is going to change the guidelines.
 * Invoking the general notability guidelines isn't cherry-picking, it's the very core of Wikipedia's conception of notability. Largoplazo (talk) 02:38, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 00:56, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment, Cup of tea anyone? Coolabahapple (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Careful, it's hot. ogenstein (talk) 02:58, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Article withdrawn. I have moved the article into draftspace in accordance with Wikipedia policies because I need more time to work on this. I need to improve it and add more references. Thanks for your time and input homies. Till next time. Insularism (talk) 13:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.