Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ttongsul


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, by default keep. Everybody is welcome to add info to the article based on reliable sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:22, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Ttongsul

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

AfD Summary: No viable resource has been specified.

- The existence of such an item is highly controversial.

- None of the specified resources can truly be viewed as "verifiable resources" as stated below

- Three of the specified resources are based on two dubious sources (rocketnews24 and vice.com TV show) both of Japanese origin. (huffingtonpost & rocketnews24 as well as dailymail [vice.com TV show])

Reference 1: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/07/girls-tricked-into-drinking-feces-wine_n_2427138.html Refers to the Rocketnews24.com article

Reference 2: 일상 으로 본 조선 시대 이야기, Volume 2 Refers to a incomplete(?) Korean book at Japanese Google

Reference 3: Rocketnews24.com Refers to a Japanese news website.

Reference 4: naver.com Refers to a dubious article written in Korean on Naver.com (Korean news portal) lacking any further sources.

Reference 5: A Chinese book doesn't make it Korean.

Reference 6: As previously stated in this article's Talk section, it's very unlikely that such information comes from a book on organic chemistry.

Reference 7: www.dailymail.co.uk Sarah Griffith's article which is referring to the vice.com show as well.

As the rumors and invention of the existence of items such as the fictive 'Ttongsul' originate from the Japanese-Korean dispute.

This article is derogatory for the Korean culture as is, it does not only "scream of anti-Korean propaganda" it is anti-Korean propaganda based on invalid information. You may also want see the talk page for other opinions on this article (Talk).

You can find more information here (article and comments): http://kotaku.com/anger-over-korean-poo-wine-video-1200257493

Note:

This article previously has been marked for speedy deletion as in my view it's a sort of racism that doesn't belong on Wikipedia - Reasons

G1. Patent nonsense: implausible theories, fictional material, coherent non-English material,

G10. Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose: article suggests Koreans alone would ingest fecals (?),

A11. Obviously invented

- were not reason enough for a speedy deletion according to user GB_fan Ryohka (talk) 06:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2014 May 2.  — cyberbot I  Notify Online 06:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)


 * STRONG keep. There are countless valid sources and historical korean documents regarding korean faeces wine ttongsul. Sorry Ryohka, Wikipedia does NOT censor unsavory articles about south korea purely because it paints a nation in a negative light.   Ryohka has also raised and got the the south korean wikipedia article ttongsul entry deleted and attempted to hide any trace of this .   Korean net users PLEASE DO NOT blindly attempt to censor wikipedia and blame Japanese with groundless claims! thank you Debunkpropaganda (talk) 13:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry to disappoint you Debunkpropaganda, neither is my account a "sockpuppet account" nor am I Korean. I'm not even remotely Asian. I was born in Switzerland and am Caucasian/white. How about you show/name us some of the "countless valid sources and historical korean documents regarding korean faeces wine ttongsul" ? thank you Whatever source I found about that feces wine is of Japanese origin, as stated on the deletion project page. I'm not even trying to blame Japanese for anything, as I'm a great fan of the Japanese culture itself, so please do not attempt to make any false accusations. This is not a blind attempt to censor Wikipedia in any way, it is an attempt to keep racism away from Wikipedia in order to make it a reliable resource again.
 * Dear Debunkpropaganda

Instead of reverting each and every change I'm making, why not provide some constructive idea why you would want this lie to be kept? I've moved Debunkpropaganda's accusations to the talk page, yet you have reverted them to the project page.. so let's talk on the project page if in your view it belongs here. Ryo &laquo; message me &raquo; 11:06, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Dear GB_fan
 * All I did was revert the inappropriate removal of a recomendation for the article to be kept. This page is the appropriate place for that statement to be made.  You do not get to move other editor's comments and hide them on the talk page.  This page is for that discussion to happen.  I have no opinion on whether this article should be kept or deleted.  I have looked at none of the sources and do not plan on doing it.  I declined your earlier speedy deletion because none of the criteria you tagged it with applied, as I explained on my talk page.  This discussion will go for a minimum of seven days and then an uninvolved admin will assess the consensus and close the discussion.  GB fan 11:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I wasn't hiding them intentionally, as I understood it the talk page are for discussions. If that is not the case, indeed it belongs here. As you seem to be a quite engaged admin, I'm sure you know what I mean by Wikietiquette. As the content of the statement isn't quite helpful, I hope you do understand why I'd put another delete below (I'm totally new to this /hints/, as I've never been this disgusted by a Wikipedia article ever before). Ryo &laquo; message me &raquo; 12:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Generally talk pages are for discussion, but in the case of AFDs the discussion happens on the main page and the talk pages are rarely used as the discussions are revelevant to the question of deletion. In this case, this conversation should probably be held somewhere else.  If you want to continue, please either come to my talk page or start a conversation on your talk page.  GB fan 13:08, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * STRONG delete. As still nobody could provide any viable information. And yes I have initiated the deletion of the Korean article as well. As that one is mere a mere spam page without any resources either (not even invalid ones). I still would like User GB_fan to speak up on why he'd claim the need for this article to exist. Ryo  &laquo; message me &raquo; 11:19, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, I have never claimed this article should exist, just that the speedy deletion criteria did not apply and that an editor's !vote belongs on this page, not the talk page. GB fan 11:39, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing up that your intentions are on neutral ground. Although if you looked at some of the sources in the article you had figured multiple speedy deletion criteria are given. No problem.. we'll go by AfD proposal and I hope I won't have to do it again later. Ryo &laquo; message me &raquo; 12:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep
 * 1. Reliability. The claim by the AfD nominator reproduced below is just a personal opinion:
 * “As the rumors and invention of the existence of items such as the fictive 'Ttongsul' originate from the Japanese-Korean dispute.


 * This article is derogatory for the Korean culture as is, it does not only "scream of anti-Korean propaganda" it is anti-Korean propaganda based on invalid information. You may also want see the talk page for other opinions on this article (Talk).


 * You can find more information here (article and comments): http://kotaku.com/anger-over-korean-poo-wine-video-1200257493 ”


 * I wonder - Is the AfD nominator claiming that every source cited in the article is unreliable but comments in the talk page and kotaku.com are reliable? Can the AfD nominator provide objective criteria for claiming that, for example, Gyeongnam Ilbo (a source cited in the article) is less reliable than comments in the talk page?
 * 2. Controversiality. The following claim by the AfD nominator is not a valid reason for deletion.
 * “The existence of such an item is highly controversial.”
 * If the subject matter is factually controversial as the AfD nominator claims, a description of the controversiality can be added to the article, based on verifiable sources. There are many articles on controversial topics, such as Loch Ness Monster, Yeti, Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute, and Liancourt Rocks disputes. De 4 de 171 (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC), slightly expanded by De 4 de 171 (talk) 02:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC), De 4 de 171 (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 1. Reliability
 * The claim is not just a personal opinion as you can take from the Kotaku post as provided per se.
 * I wonder - Is the AfD nominator claiming that every source cited in the article is unreliable but comments in the talk page and kotaku.com are reliable? Can the AfD nominator provide objective criteria for claiming that, for example, Gyeongnam Ilbo (a source cited in the article) is less reliable than comments in the talk page?
 * The Gyeongnam Ilbo article has recently been added by Phoenix7777 (on 5.May 2014). As far as I can tell it is as reliable as all other articles specified for either keep or delete as it does not provide any sources. I wouldn't claim that Kotaku was a more or less reliable source.
 * If you search for "ttongsul" on google, you'll see at least 10 pages of articles in every thinkable language, all based on the "rocketnews24" and the "VICE" 'contributions'.
 * While I'm at it - citing or specifying an article as a reference that is based on one and the same article which already had been stated as a source further below in the same Wikipage, whatsoever doesn't exactly contribute to the reliability. (i.e. The Huffington Post or Sarah Griffiths [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2398130/Ttongsul-bizarre-traditional-Korean-rice-wine-uses-human-POO-heal.html Daily Mail UK arcticle). That only adds up to the belief somebody thinks for better or for worse that he's got to prove the existence of something inexistent, in my opinion!
 * However before the issue went viral with Vice's show, you could literally find nothing about it anywhere. It seems very odd to me that if you search for it now you'd find out it's based on either of the named articles (which aren't of Korean origin at all).
 * 2. Controversiality
 * Of course I fail to see how Nessie, Yeti, the Falkland Islands sovereignty or Liancourt Rocks disputes would impute a rather disgusting culture to an entire nation, which is widely believed to be a myth. -- Ryo &laquo; message me &raquo; 10:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your comments, though I hope you avoid derogatory labels such as “disgusting culture”, respecting cultural differences.
 * Your comment on 1. Reliability. A red herring. You avoided answering my yes/no questions.
 * Your comment on 2. Controversiality. Another red herring. What you did was to have recourse to a personal opinion again. You should provide Wikipedia policies which support deletion of an article because of controversiality of existence of a subject matter. (By the way, I fail to see how the phrase, “which is widely believed to be a myth,” a part of the personal opinion, is related to the status of the article. Cf. “The scientific community regards the Loch Ness Monster as a modern-day myth”, according to the accepted article, Loch Ness Monster.) De 4 de 171 (talk) 13:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems that there are new Korean sources added to the article after your nomination. It is good to have sources independent of the single rocketnews24 article. At any rate, what did you intend by making the following comment?
 * “Reference 2: 일상 으로 본 조선 시대 이야기, Volume 2 Refers to a incomplete(?) Korean book at Japanese Google”


 * Does use of Japanese Google mean that the Korean book is unreliable? You can locate the book, using, e.g., WorldCat. Its copies are owned by Harvard, CUNY, Duke, and other libraries around the world, so you can borrow one. Please show properly that every source cited in the article does not pass WP:VERIFY or WP:RELIABLE, without recourse to personal impressions. De 4 de 171 (talk) 14:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Delete - Strong argument made by user Ryohka. The article is badly sourced and written. I made independent searches for sources and found nothing new. If no reliable sources can be found, it should be deleted --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Strong ... badly ..." - they are just subjective impressions. The request is simple. Please show properly that every source cited in the article does not pass WP:VERIFY or WP:RELIABLE, without recourse to personal impressions. Thanks. De 4 de 171 (talk) 16:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)


 * on the fence What we need is someone who speaks Korean, who doesn't have a dog in this fight, to review Korean-language sources. If this thing is covered in sufficient sources, ideally from Korea, it should be kept, but the sources used should be focused on high quality ones, not things like Vice. There are many people in India who drink urine, for example, so the idea of consuming human products is not totally bizarre, but I think we need confirmation of the sourcing before keeping.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep: Even if it didn't historically exist as a medicinal practice, the concept still exists as something documented in culture, there are numerous mentions of Ttongsul in third-party sources. In that case, the article should be worded that it was "allegedly a traditional medicinal preparation, according to X and Y". The concept, real or not, seems to meet notability standards; whether or not it is real is up to debate, however this is a content issue, and not an AfD one. -- benlisquare T•C•E 08:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. Is it a racist hoax?  Maybe, I don't read Korean nor do I have any special knowledge of the topic, so I can't say for certain either way.  However, there seems to be enough written about this that regardless of whether it's real or not, the concept has become notable.  Of course, if it is a load of crap (sorry), then that should be noted prominently in the article. Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:52, 11 May 2014 (UTC).
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.