Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tudor Road (Anchorage, Alaska)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  Sandstein  17:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Tudor Road (Anchorage, Alaska)

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Contested PROD. Non-notable street.  Dough 48  72  01:18, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete we don't consider arterials notable for smaller cities. --Rschen7754 01:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete, asserts no importance. Doesn't appear to have any claim to fame other than being an arterial street. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Alaska-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:58, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete It is an important arterial road in Anchorage, but, like most local roads, not notable unto itself. I did check the Anchorage Daily News, the results don't show much in the way of coverage of the road itself. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Neutral I'm still unclear whether this is a real case of lack of notability, or "Wikipedia has too many articles. Go away."  Lots of roads of far lesser significance appear to be notable solely on account of having a numbered shield on a map.  Traffic counts for Tudor Road between the Lake Otis Parkway intersection and the Alaska Native Medical Center rank within the top twelve for the entire state of Alaska over the past decade.  The Tudor/Lake Otis intersection itself was subject to substantial media coverage throughout the 1990s and 2000s for its former position as a major traffic bottleneck in Anchorage.  While the opening of Elmore Road (connection of South Bragaw Street to Abbott Loop Road, named for National Guard major general William S. Elmore, whose name had already adorned the southern end of this section line near his former homestead) and other roads alleviated a lot of that problem, there is a certain notability attached to that intersection which shouldn't be overlooked merely because it's not a current media topic.
 * Understanding that it's discouraged to address individual editors here, I'm somewhat suspicious when I see a slew of new articles with sketchy sourcing, most or all leading to DYK nominations and the like, so that someone can fill their userpage with icons. It reminds me of the politician who keeps pushing that one piece of legislation thinking that it's going to get him reelected 5 or 10 times.  BTW, here's a DYK-level factoid for you: a Fort Richardson MP was killed in the line of duty on Tudor Road in 1975.  I believe he was a passenger with a fellow MP, returning to post, following behind a truck carrying a load of pipe.  One of the pipes dislodged from the load, went through the windshield and implaled him.RadioKAOS (talk) 02:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Geez, what is it with unsecured loads around Anchorage killing military personnel? Anyhoo, I knew Tudor was/is a notorious pain in the ass road, but as I spend as little time as possible in Los Anchorage I wasn't really aware it got that much attention. I'm generally not a big believer in every road having its own article, but if more sources showed up I suppose I could be convinced there is some notability for this one. ( btw I've been looking over Portage Glacier Highway if you're interested ) Beeblebrox (talk) 05:11, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to point it out, there seems to be a lot of deaths that occur on this road.     (Same thing seems to apply to moose )

Awardgive, the editor with the msitaken name. 06:16, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Car accidents do not necessarily make a road notable. In addition, Tudor Road being one of the busiest roads in Alaska is not significant cosidering the low volume of traffic on many of Alaska's roads. It's notability seems to be only of local significance.  Dough 48  72  14:30, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I went through the traffic data for reasons other than adding information to Wikipedia articles. It sounds like you're saying that it's a waste of time to mention such a thing, and I should go about deleting any existing mention found in articles, because none of the roads in Alaska receive 300,000 cars per day like an urban Interstate.  2) There are plenty of "roads of local significance" in other states which are suddenly "notable" because they're listed on a map as State Route 764 or whatever.  It's already been pointed out numerous times elsewhere that Alaska doesn't employ this scheme, and our major roads are known primarily by name rather than number.  My earliest years, before my family moved to Alaska, were spent living alongside Ohio State Route 687.  Trust me when I tell you that this is no less a "road of local significance" than Tudor Road.  Perhaps even more so, in actuality.
 * This sort of thing is why I've put effort into maintaining WP:ALASKA rather than rolling it into WP:US like other state projects. There's a popular bumper sticker here: "We don't give a damn how they do it Outside."  Many Alaskans recognize that we employ a unique perspective.  Given the nature of people working together, mostly sight unseen, who enjoy varying levels of familiarity, this unique perspective can and will be hijacked and homogenized.  For instance, the Stampede Trail has historically been a road.  I found myself having to defend this point, apparently because Into the Wild (whether the book or the film) has ingrained into people's minds that it's a hiking trail and nothing but a hiking trail.  This ignores both its history and it's modern-day position as a potential corridor to extend Alaska's road network westward.  Don't get me started on the Palin partisans (I didn't say "Palinista" this time, are you happy?) and the numerous instances of undue weight they created in Alaska-related articles by virtue of mentioning her.  There's lots of that damage (mostly from perhaps-not-so-neutral coverage of her vice-presidential campaign from 2008) which still hasn't been undone.RadioKAOS (talk) 02:31, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But this is an encyclopedia written for a global (not just American) audience, not just an Alaskan audience. Arterials in most cities are not considered notable across the U.S. (and worldwide, as far as I'm aware). It's only in the most major cities that we have articles for arterials, and even then, only select arterials. None of the cities in Alaska are among the most major cities in the U.S. or in the world. We don't "curve" the notability standard down for Alaska; see WP:GNG. --Rschen7754 public (talk) 02:40, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I took his point to be more about how roads are named up here and how that relates to notability. We don't refer to our roads by numbers, even on the ones that do have them they are rarely posted and Alaskans always refer to them by name and not number. So, in some other state this same road would be argued to be notable because it is "State Route 27" or whatever, but in AK we don't do that and don't care that everybody else does. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:54, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But is it actually notable? So far, the article gives no claims to notability beyond those of the typical arterial road. --Rschen7754 public (talk) 02:59, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The Tudor/Lake Otis intersection and associated problems is a very important element of the modern history of Anchorage. Tudor coupled with Muldoon Road is a vital bypass route of Alaska Route 1 through Anchorage and has certainly been recognized as such, though the route is not signed nor has it been considered to be signed.
 * Go back and you can see that I'm not in support of keeping the article. However, it's one thing to say that "we don't 'curve' the notability standard down for Alaska," and yet the example I provided shows that when reality and common sense enter the picture, there is a curve.  I provided a valid wikilink to an article on a road in Ohio, which would indicate that this road is considered notable.  The article speaks greatly to the notability and history of the route designation itself, but little about the notability and history of the road prior to the route designation.  Time to introduce reality and common sense.  This road may have possibly been a rather important road back in the days of the Ohio and Erie Canal.  However, the canal quit operating a long time ago.  For most of the past 150+ years, this road has been nothing more than "a road of local significance."  The prevailing attitude here, backed more by the content of the article than the opinion of any one editor, is that it's not a "road of local significance," but rather "notable."  When you scrape away the layers of turd polish, you realize that this notability is being established almost entirely on the basis of the State of Ohio sticking a sign with a number on the road.  If the article was called Fulton Road (Canton, Ohio) instead of Ohio State Route 687, I'm sure you'd be clamoring to have it deleted just like with this article.
 * It seems pretty clear to me that while "we don't 'curve' the notability standard down for Alaska" may have some validity, that it's more of a case of different standards being applied to Alaska solely because Alaska is not using the same standards as other places.RadioKAOS (talk) 03:59, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Tudor Road is simply an arterial city street like any other in any large city around the country. In Alaska, the roads that are notable enough are the main highways that link separate cities, whether they are numbered or not, along with any freeways.  Dough 48  72  04:06, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

May I be allowed to suggest the creation of the article List of Major Arterial Roads in Anchorage, Alaska? Awardgive, the editor with the msitaken name. 03:02, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I had more to say, but this discussion was starting to go nowhere fast. It was necessary to walk away and attend to real-life financial obligations.  Before this suggestion was offered, I had already noticed User:Awardgive/List of Highways in Anchorage, Alaska.  Methinks it's putting the cart before the horse;  parent article Anchorage, Alaska could use someone who has the time to provide a coherent rewrite of the section on surface transportation.RadioKAOS (talk) 14:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I certainly have a few things to say on the subject of driving around in Anchorag and the relative intelligence of the planning of the road system there, but they aren't really fit for an encyclopedia article... Beeblebrox (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.