Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turkey and England football rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   red carded. The Bushranger One ping only 02:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Turkey and England football rivalry

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From an internet search this rivalry doesn't seem to get any mention whatsoever in any English language sources. Declined PROD, with the decliner claiming that the rivalry exists only (if thats possible) in Turkey. Though no references to back it up. Ravendrop 10:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete unless someone can find reliable sources - It's strange, there was a fair bit of talk about this when an English fan was stabbed, but my google foo has failed me in finding any sources .  FYI to the nom, the England vs Germany football rivalry is similarly largely felt by the English, Germans usually see the Dutch as their main rivals. -- Deadly&forall;ssassin  11:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 15:21, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. Opinions needs to be shown in reliable sources in order to have any standing in an encyclopaedia. The Old Firm is a good example. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 16:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - all the article tells us is that the two teams have played each other a few times. That does not consitute a rivalry -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - this is not a rivalry full stop, let alone a notable one. GiantSnowman 18:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I remember there being a short-lived rivalry when Turkey and England were in the same qualifying group for Euro 2004, and my memory is confirmed by press reports from the UK and around the world.. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. A couple of minutes searching finds a cast-iron reliable source showing that coverage of that rivalry goes beyond contemporaneous news coverage, these books confirm the most offensive chant one of the offensive chants associated with this rivalry (including that it originated before the Euro 2004 campaign, as two of the books were published in 2001 and 2002) and this book credits this rivalry with prompting campaigns against racism in English football, such as Kick It Out. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:19, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That really belongs in Racism in association football. I don't think you can count one chant that came to a head around 2003 as a football rivalry. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I provided other sources that are not about that one chant. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The only other thing I could see was tighter than average security around two England/Turkey matches in the same year following incidents of racism and hooliganism. Unfortunately, neither racism nor hooliganism are that unusual in football. There would be a case for an article if there was either sources out there that unambigously write about the rivalry between two football teams, or a series of events that show, beyond reasonable doubt, that a specific rivalry exists, but this is neither. All this really shows is evidence of generic rivalry with whoever's competing with you for the automatic qualification spot this year. Some people might argue that those ugly events was evidence of something deeper, but we don't write articles on the basis of disputable observations of what's significant about an event.
 * What is ambiguous about this source that I linked above? It was published in 2007 and says, "since the beginning of the twenty-first century a new source of antagonism has been added to the equation - the growth of anti-Turkish sentiment in English football." That is not the description of any "generic rivalry with whoever's competing with you for the automatic qualification spot", but of a specific phenomenon that has been noted in a book from an academic publisher. The other sources that I linked support that contention. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It takes more than one paragraph in a book to count as substantial coverage in reliable sources. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 07:12, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. That's why I linked many other sources above. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. There is no rivalry here. The overall standings section says it all. Argyle 4 Life  talk  10:15, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - If England has rivalries with any other football nations, they are Germany, Argentina and Scotland. I don't know about in Turkey, but no one in the UK sees Turkey as a rival for England. – PeeJay 17:58, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.