Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Turkish tea


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep but Move to Tea in Turkey. There is consensus below that "Turkish tea" is an infelicitous title but that a general article on tea drinking in Turkey which would use much of the content of the current article is possible. The preferred title seems to be "Tea in Turkey" but this AfD close is without prejudice to a move to another, appropriate title based on talk page consensus. Eluchil404 (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Turkish tea

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There is no such thing as Turkish tea; it's just black tea with added boiled water. Turkish tea is prepared the exact same way as Kazakh tea, Moroccan tea or Arabic tea. It's not equivalent to Turkish coffee, which has a specific preparation. 92slim (talk) 03:32, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete As nominator. --92slim (talk) 16:10, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 03:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 03:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment – It's not clear to me why there needs to be a unique preparation for a food for there to be an article about it. Plenty of countries have notable traditions around tea; numerous articles exist about those. It's not clear to me why the Turkey article is uniquely worthy of deletion. Also, for the record, don't delete half of an article (much of it sourced) and then submit it for deletion. It's disingenuous. Rwenonah (talk) 04:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Clear cases of WP:OR ought to be deleted. Turkish tea refers to plain black tea with boiled water, and the preparation is exactly the same all over Africa and Asia. There is nothing particularly Turkish about it and neither it is known as Turkish anywhere in the world (see Samovar), unlike the Turkish coffee. As for the rest, where are those articles? If so, they could be also nominated for deletion or merger. As an example, English tea redirects to Black tea (because that's what it is). --92slim (talk) 04:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This isn't a clear case of WP:OR. There are plenty of sources on the page in question.
 * Please don't default to "English" to refer to Britain-wide characteristics; British tea rightly redirects to Tea in the United Kingdom. See also Russian tea culture or Indian tea culture.
 * I don't understand this obsession with a unique preparation; Russian tea is similar to tea drunk in Central Asia and British-style tea is drunk everywhere, with neither uniquely known in that way, but articles still exist. What's important is that local tea culture is in some way distinct or seen as nationally important, which seems the case with Turkey. Rwenonah (talk) 04:35, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as Turkish tea. No one is talking about Tea culture, or Tea in Turkey. And no, there aren't any sources that refer to Turkish tea - only sources that point to irrelevant facts that don't match the article and citation tags for WP:OR. --92slim (talk) 04:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * To report what I put on the talk page: here are some sources that i found by briefly googling the concept:
 * "Classic Turkish Cookery", by Ghillie Bassan, pg. 211
 * "The Art and Craft of Tea", by Joseph Wesly Uhl, pg. 110
 * "Tea and Tourism", by Lee Joliffe, pg. 36.
 * "Global Tea Breeding", pg. 313.
 * So evidently reliable sources do believe that there is such a thing as Turkish tea. Do you have sources saying otherwise? If not, please stop asserting it doesn't exist. Rwenonah (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * No, that's about black tea, not the abstract concept you just invented called "Turkish tea". I'll repeat it again: no such thing as Turkish tea, English tea or British tea. Maybe it refers to Black tea in Turkey, or variaties and tea blends. 92slim (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * (ec) keep The nominator argues that No one is talking about Tea culture, or Tea in Turkey. However, the hatnote on the article explicitly says that the article is intended to be about "the general topic of tea in Turkey", and the article is in Category:Tea culture by country. They argue that There is no such thing as Turkish tea, but this is a) arguably false: there certainly is such thing as tea that comes from Turkey, tea that is consumed in Turkey, and tea that is prepared in the manner in which it is in Turkey (whether or not that manner is functionally distinguishable from that of nearby countries), and b) irrelevant: something doesn't have to exist to be notable, only be covered in reliable sources.  Daleks don't exist, and yet we have an article on them. In fact, it seems as if "tea in Turkey" is notable: here and here appear to be two relevant articles, though unfortunately I do not have full access to either. The argument that the article would be better titled "Tea in Turkey" could be made, but that's no reason to delete the article in its entirety. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 14:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Tea in Turkey is not the same as Turkish tea, so you're simply repeating the same mistake. There is no such thing as Turkish tea, only black tea. 92slim (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * "Tea in Turkey" and "Turkish tea" mean basically the same thing. Also, it is possible for tea to be distinct in ways other than the variety of tea it is ... national norms, cultural traditions, preparation, etc. are all also distinguishing factors. Rwenonah (talk) 15:30, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Turkish tea not only exists; it is notable. Andrew D. (talk) 15:55, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it similar to English tea? --92slim (talk) 16:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Somewhat as both countries are big consumers and so there is a significant tea culture – see list of countries by tea consumption per capita. Andrew D. (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete There really is no such thing as "Turkish tea", either in its brewing process, its serving, or (beyond the mere fact if it being harvested from tea bushes grown in Turkey) in its type. It's done the same throughout the whole middle east and neighboring countries. Yes, the custom of drinking that quantity of tea might be particular to Turkey, and the shear number of tea shops that serve or deliver the stuff might be unique to Turkey, but that doesn't make the tea itself "Turkish tea" - and nobody ever calls it or markets it as 'Turkish tea", it is just tea (çay). Foodstuffs with national or regional names attached to them have to have some proper justification for that name attachment. An article titled "Tea drinking in Turkey" if there were sources to support it, could be possible. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:32, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Per Tiptoes suggestion, Turkish tea is just plain old black tea. The article is just original research. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * A big part of the reason for that is because all of the sourced material in the article was removed without discussion by the same person who submitted it for deletion... Rwenonah (talk) 19:57, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The deleted material was all off-topic padding. It was content dealing with commercial tea production in Turkey, content about tea drinking in Turkish society, and some stuff about "Turkish herbal teas" (which are actually a very recent innovation, inspired by European and American products, and as Turkish as a Coca-Cola clone can of Cola Turka is a "Turkish soft drink"). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * it's odd, but all of that sounds relevant to an article about tea in Turkey. It's especially odd you'd use an example of a Turkish product inspired by foreign influences which has an article to justify deleting a similar article. Rwenonah (talk) 20:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The article isn't about tea in Turkey! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes it is. The hat note says, and I quote, "This article is about the general topic of tea in Turkey. For the specific tea variety, see Rize tea." Seems pretty clear and unequival to me. Rwenonah (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Turkish tea is a type of tea is what is being specifically claimed in the first sentence of the lead, and the article is titled "Turkish tea" to match that specific claim - so it is NOT about general tea drinking in Turkey, the article is about a claimed-to-exist specific type of tea called "Turkish tea", a claim which however is not supported by reality or by sources. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:33, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that the structure and scope of the lead paragraph is not appropriate to the content of the article. I think the best way forward is to rewrite the lead. Ibadibam (talk) 18:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per Tiptoethrutheminefield -- Ե րևանցի talk  10:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The claims that this topic is not notable are clearly false. Here's a list of sources to demonstrate this:
 * Tea and the Domestication of the Turkish State
 * Turkish Tea: A Flourishing Industry in Northeastern Turkey
 * World Atlas of Tea – "Turkish people have a unique method of Serving tea"
 * Essential Turkish Cuisine – "To make Turkish tea, one needs a çaydanlık..."
 * Chernobyl radioactivity in Turkish tea
 * Partial Purification And Characterization Of Polyphenoloxidase From Turkish Tea Leaf
 * For All the Tea in Turkey
 * Caffeine Content Investigation in the Turkish Black Teas
 * Andrew D. (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Move to Turkish tea culture, which is the intended scope of this article to begin with. Don't delete, as there's clearly notable content here. Ibadibam (talk) 23:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Support move.Rwenonah (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Tea in Turkey (as per Tea in the United Kingdom) as a title would be more accurate for this option (or Tea drinking in Turkey if only the consumption side is going to be covered). There is nothing specifically culturally "Turkish" about any of it - the tea and its preparation is exactly the same in neighboring countries, and inside Turkey do Kurds, Laz, etc., not also drink tea? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * But is the tea consumption in neighboring countries not indelibly linked to centuries of proliferation of Turkish culture throughout the region under the Ottomans? Anyway, yes, I think tea in Turkey is fine. The typical organization, if you look at Category:Tea by country, is X tea for tea production and varieties, and X tea culture for tea drinking. Tea in Australia, Tea in the United Kingdom and Turkish tea are the exceptions to the norm. But then we've got unpaired articles like Argentine tea culture, which covers production, and Vietnamese tea, which covers tea culture. I'd say there's enough precedent for us to choose our preference from among Turkish tea, Turkish tea culture and tea in Turkey. Ibadibam (talk) 18:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
 * There were no centuries of tea drinking under the Ottomans! It is an creation of the 20th century, with no history or uniqueness substantial enough to justify a label "culture". I think if we are going to have an article about tea in Turkey it might as well cover the production of it in Turkey too.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:03, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If anything, the fact that promoting tea drinking was a mechanism by which Kemalist national identity was established in the 20th century makes it more notable - and more unique to Turkey. Rwenonah (talk) 03:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
 * That's very interesting. Not that it bears on this discussion, but if tea has only reached widespread consumption in the last 100 years, then why do you suppose tea customs are so similar among Turks, Arabs, Azeris, Persians, etc.? Usually such similarities are rooted in deeper history. Ibadibam (talk) 22:28, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. but retitle to Tea in Turkey/', which is the actual subject of the article. There is enough material for an article, and numerous analogous articles.  DGG ( talk ) 19:46, 12 December 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.