Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Twice as Nice


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  12:53, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Twice as Nice

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Fails WP:BASIC, WP:NOTABILITY, WP:ANYBIO and WP:MUSICBIO. No regular source cited to prove significance for artist or group. DBrown SPS (talk) 11:48, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. 66.189.232.210 (talk) 12:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I have inserted citations to support WP:BASIC, WP:NOTABILITY, WP:ANYBIO and WP:MUSICBIO. (Haydon.h. (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haydon.h. (talk • contribs) 18:33, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete - The references in this article do not provide the Significant coverage in reliable, independent sources that Wikipedia's GNG demands. You can't inherit notability - a person does not become famous because they work with a famous person, for example. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete per Exemplo347. This looks like an attempt to establish notability by association. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I am not sure what citations you are looking for - included are citations on Lewis Hughes and Nick Audino, two members of the company who have a long series of production credits: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/lewis-hughes-mn0002946347, http://www.allmusic.com/artist/nick-audino-mn0002946350. I don't know what you are looking for. To have a wikipedia article you suddenly need a magazine article written about you? This is ridiculous. They are grammy nominated and have produced multiple top 10 singles. By this logic every single Music Producer should have their article deleted from wikipedia. (Haydon.h. (talk) 00:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC))
 * Delete per nom. The enormous number of refs does not compensate for the lack of notability that they confer (or do not confer) on the article subject. The fact that individuals in the organisation have acheieved much in their lives does not constitute notability for the organisation itself. This reads like a promo piece.  Velella  Velella Talk 01:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Producer credits or Production credits cannot be given to companies, only to people. Credits to 'Twice As Nice' are given through the people Lewis Hughes, Nick Audino, Te Whiti Warbrick and Khaled Romain.

However, even if you do not accept the above, the company still achieves notable through the following criteria: Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles 6. "IS AN ENSEMBLE THAT CONTAINS TWO OR MORE INDEPENDENTLY NOTABLE MUSICIANS"

Criteria 6. is heavily substantiated throughout the entire wikipedia article.

Furthermore, as references throughout the article they also meet the following requirements: 1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works... 2. Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country 8. Has won or been nominated for a major music award such as a Grammy...

The article clearly contains citations pertaining to the above. (Haydon.h. (talk) 02:02, 5 February 2017 (UTC))

Please also note the following notability criteria for composers and lyricists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_composers_and_lyricists 1. Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition. I fail to see how this is not easily met by, for example, Twice as Nice's work on the song 'Needed Me'. We find this in the article with reference [7] http://www.complex.com/music/2016/01/a-look-at-the-production-credits-for-rihannas-anti-album That source is from a major independent website, which credits 'Twice As Nice' as "producers", "composers" and "lyricists" on the track 'Needed Me', which was a 4xplatinum track and one of the most notable tracks of 2016. This information is referenced in the very first paragraph of the article, and clearly meets the above 'notability' standards.(Haydon.h. (talk) 03:27, 5 February 2017 (UTC))
 * That source states that people from Twice as Nice were co-producers or co-writers, along with other people - at no point does it discuss Twice as Nice in any depth. To quote from WP:INHERITORG - "An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. A corporation is not notable merely because it owns notable subsidiaries. The organization or corporation itself must have been discussed in reliable independent sources for it to be considered notable. Examples: If a notable person buys a restaurant, the restaurant does not "inherit" notability from its owner. If a notable person joins an organization, the organization does not "inherit" notability from its member." Exemplo347 (talk) 07:59, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I fail to see why that is relevant. Wikipedia criteria does not state any "depth". For you to insist that "depth" is required for notability is incorrect and is not a feature of any notability criteria for composers and lyricists. Notability can be achieved through, and I quote, "credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition", ie. it merely states that parties must be "credited". That is EXACTLY what that source does. It "credits" the group 'Twice As Nice' for writing a "notable composition", in this case a song which is certified 4x platinum. Regardless of whether or not you find them notable in regards to wether or not "reliable independent sources" have discussed them, they are "notable", as per wikipedia article criteria on composers and lyricists, as they have clearly been credited "for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition." Multiple sources - all independent - cited in the very first paragraph, credit the group 'Twice As Nice' for their production work on notable compositions.  (Haydon.h. (talk) 09:31, 5 February 2017 (UTC))
 * You may have missed my post above, where I quoted directly from the General Notability Guideline - "Significant coverage in reliable, independent sources" - that's where the requirement for depth comes from. You really should read these links that people keep providing for you. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:40, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I find your post extremely patronising. The music group 'Twice As Nice' are a music group, and not only meet the criteria for a musical ensemble, but for composers and lyricists. Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_ensemble. I suspect you are imagining the group 'Twice As Nice' as a corporation, when they are in fact, a music group. My question to you is why does it matter if you perceive them to fail 'general notability' guidelines when they easily pass the notability guidelines for musicians under Composition and Lyricism? From where I sit, it seems as though you are failing them for not reaching a notability criteria that they are not trying to reach. The group 'Twice As Nice' achieve notability through being a music group and through that criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_composers_and_lyricists), not through being a corporation - nowhere has it been stated that they are a corporation. Perhaps instead of writing a patronising response you might respond to the case I've put forth, and demonstrate to me how they fail notability for musicians, irregardless of 'general notability' - or at least point me in the direction as to where it says they must meet a notability criteria outside of the category they fall under. It seems to me this is the equivalent of failing John Lennon, a notable musician (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon) on the grounds of him not meeting the notability criteria of a sportsperson. (Haydon.h. (talk) 10:31, 5 February 2017 (UTC))
 * The General Notability Guideline, if you read it, clearly states that it applies to every article. Exemplo347 (talk) 10:36, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Please reconsider what you mean by 'depth', as per guidelines presented on the notability guidelines - "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage". I would implore you to use common sense. This is a group that has been nominated for multiple grammy awards and have produced multiple top 10 singles. It is industry standard to credit individuals, as companies cannot be credited for production, composition, or lyric writing. It seems that you are arguing that they don't achieve notability through 'depth', but depth is an arbitrary term - I don't understand how depth is not achieved through production, composition and lyricism credits on hundreds of songs. This is a grammy nominated group we are talking about, who are RIAA, ARIA, FIMI, BPI certified musicians - in short, they are notable by any measure. Please use WP:Common Sense here. They achieve notability through their credits for writing hundreds of songs, as referenced in the article. (Haydon.h. (talk) 11:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC))
 * The Group weren't nominated. The individual people were nominated. That's what you're not getting, and it's a vital thing for you to understand - for Wikipedia's purposes, Notability is never inherited. Exemplo347 (talk) 11:15, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That is because, as I explained, in this industry performer names or companies are not credited for these kinds of credits. The songwriter is never credited by their artist name, and only credited by the name of their person. Even so, I would point to the following citations which support the group Twice As Nice as notable which arbitrarily do not provide enough 'depth' for you, even though wikipedia clearly states that "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage".
 * -http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-lil-wayne-skate-it-off-in-new-video-20160616
 * -http://www.complex.com/music/2016/01/a-look-at-the-production-credits-for-rihannas-anti-album
 * -https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/summer-in-the-winter/id1067482417
 * -https://www.axs.com/listen-ariana-grande-gets-her-life-in-uplifting-dance-cut-be-alright-79211.
 * These are sources referencing the group by name from major independent websites. Can I ask what your issue is with these sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haydon.h. (talk • contribs) 11:36, 5 February 2017 (UTC)  My apologies forgot to sign this. (Haydon.h. (talk) 11:43, 5 February 2017 (UTC))


 * Note I'm not going to go round and round in circles with an editor who clearly has an undeclared Conflict of Interest. I've made my policy-based arguments and they haven't been countered by the cherry-picked quotes from guidelines or by the belligerent wikilawyering. As I've already said - "The references in this article do not provide the Significant coverage in reliable, independent sources that Wikipedia's GNG demands. You can't inherit notability - a person does not become famous because they work with a famous person, for example." Exemplo347 (talk) 16:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The critical information I am reading on WP:ORG is that "The scope of this guideline covers all groups of people organized together for a purpose, although people gathered for more specific purposes may be governed by more specific guidelines. For example, people gathered together for the purpose of making music are covered by WP:MUSIC." You have told me that all articles need to meet the general notability standards as well as the subject-specific notability standards - yet that is blatantly untrue. Reading the WP:Notability you can see in the very first paragraph it clearly says the opposite of this - it states that articles meet "either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right" - key words being 'either' and 'or'. As I have demonstrated it meets the subject-specific guidelines for WP:Music. (Haydon.h. (talk) 20:38, 5 February 2017 (UTC))


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.