Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ukrainian People's Militia (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. All opinions are "delete" or "neutral", so we have a rare case of "when in doubt, delete": nobody seems to be convinced that there is sufficient sourcing for this article. The content can of course be userfied for further improvement.  Sandstein  09:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Ukrainian People's Militia
AfDs for this article: 
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The Ukrainian People's Militia did not exist. Militia's existed, as militia is the Ukrainian word for police - and there is already an article about the Ukrainian auxiliary police. This article is based entirely on original research and mistranslations and no english sources make any reference to this alleged unit. Львівське (talk) 08:34, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * To Ukrainian auxiliary police. --Birczanin 17:40, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:43, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Neutral: Gosh, this would be much simpler if I could read Ukranian; right now, I can't figure out any of the refs. Whom do I AGF in: the author(s) or the nominbator? After the previous discussion, I think the burden of proof is on the user who initiated both noms. I'm sorry that proving a negative is quite difficult, but I think it's reasonable to ask for some more information before deciding my stance.  bahamut0013  words deeds 19:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What kind of proof do I need? I've been researching this topic extensively lately and the only time the word "militia" pops up is when referring to auxiliary police. Though I don't have a source that explicitly states "the 'Ukrainian People's Militia' did not exist" I do have at least one I remember explaining the confusion historians find because "police" in Ukrainian is literally "militia"...so...I'll get proofs, just don't know what we're looking for exactly. And I don't mean to engage in RS here, but "narodna militsia" = "people's police" so, IMO, it just seems like a way of describing the police; and the closest unit I could find was the "Ukrainska Narodna Samooborona", there is no mention of the "UPM" in Peter Abbott's "Ukrainian Armies" book which covers literally EVERY type of unit (including obscure police/militia units)--Львівське (talk) 20:49, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hard to say, unfortunately, but the one you say that mentions the confusion in translation would probably do it for me (I'm assuming that the explanation of the translation is in English, otherwise, it won't help my own ignorance).  bahamut0013  words deeds 21:37, 27 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - on face value it lacks reliable sources so the existance of this organisation isn't verifable. As such the subject fails the requirement for 'significant independent coverage' and therefore isn't notable per WP:NOTABLE. Anotherclown (talk) 03:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete but Ukrainian auxiliary police and the Ukrainian Police article ought to clearly state and use the word 'militsiya' in their opening paragraphs. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:57, 30 November 2010 (UTC) Neutral - we need User:MarshallBagramyan in here. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I could have sworn I brought it up on a talk page once, it has to be in one of my notes...I'll find the ref again...I was researching this topic extensively recently so its all a jumble. I'm sure I could pull up other refs where authors say "the police or so-called militia" or "police/militia" etc.--Львівське (talk) 03:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Neutral While it's virtually impossible to verify what these sources are saying is true, we do have some basis that the compiler's specialty is in World War II affairs (according to this page on a university website), and that he is affiliated with Kiev State University. I have less success in finding the Ukrainian-published sources in research libraries, although this can readily be explained that it has not yet reached libraries in the West. However, I find it bizarre that editors have not found any mention of it in English-language or Western sources. Perhaps the unit goes by a different name in Ukrainian, hence the naming discrepancy with the Ukrainische Hilfspolizei article. If anyone has access to it, see Alexander Dallin (1981). German Rule in Russia: 1941-1945: A Study of Occupation Policies. Boulder, CO: Westview Press and Mark Mazower's Hitler's Empire: How the Nazis Ruled Europe (Penguin, 2008). Perhaps some references might exist there.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:25, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have online access to the Dallin book, the word "militia" does not appear in it. --Львівське (talk) 04:48, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Delete - if we are having difficulty finding information about the group then we lack adequate sources for an article and the subject lacks notability. Since the largest contributor to the article appears not to be available, it seems that the article will not improve.  If in the future sources are found, then the article could be re-written.  TFD (talk) 00:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

these are two distinct units
Guys, you all got it wrong. The Ukrainian People's Militia (Народна Міліція) or more correct militias DID exist! for two months, before they were disbanded by the German Military authorities and replaced by the Ukrainian auxiliary police (Українська поліція допоміжна). However there is no direct lineage between the two, as the militias were organized by Ukrainian nationalists to take revenge on their enemies, while the police was organized top down by the Germans to ensure policing of the occupied territories. Also the article about the Ukrainian auxiliary police (Ukrainische Hilfspolizei) gets the date of the founding wrong: not July 27th, but on August 18th 1941 the Ukrainische Hilfspolizei was established. BUT both units were distinctly different from the Ukrainian Schutzmannschaft battalions! The Ukrainian Schutzmannschaft battalions were active in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine, while the militias and police were active in the District of Galicia of the General Government. Also each German command (Wehrmacht, SS, Einsatzgruppen, Militärverwaltung, Waffen-SS, ecc.) recruited it's own Ukrainian collaborators: i.e. in 1942 the Reichskommissariat Ukraine fielded 70 Schutzmannschaft battalions with 35,000 men, 14,163 Ukrainian members of the Schutzpolizei in the big cities as well as 54,794 other policemen of the Gendarmerie. see and  for details. Therefore I am neutral on this article: as there was a Ukrainian People's Militia; or at least an attempt to form one. Both German books are stating that the militias were formed in the first days of the war by OUN activists with the encouragement of the German Military authorities, but already by the end of July the Germans began to disband the militias and created their own police units. Also both books agree that the militias were not led by an unified Ukrainian command, but were subject to the local German military commanders. Therefore I am neutral on this subject as I do not see anything to support a Ukrainian People's Militia, but see a lot of OUN militias/units that were active in the first two months of the war without a unified leadership. noclador (talk) 00:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, militias existed (its as ambiguous a term as saying "partisans") before the UH was formed and afterwards police units were referred to as militias in english (from the Ukrainian "militsia") so before and after, "militias" existed, I'm not contesting the loose usage of the term. I'll have to look into the date you cited as well. The Abbott book gives a pretty good detail of how all this came about.--Львівське (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.