Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Umar's marriage to Umm Kulthum


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Spartaz Humbug! 18:22, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Umar's marriage to Umm Kulthum

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The entire article is a combination of four web sources which fail WP:IRS big time and a whole lot of WP:OR. The four sources are al-shia, ahlelbayt and answering-ansar (polemical Shi'ite sites) and Lies of Answering Ansar (polemical Sunni site). All four of them lack any sort of professional oversight and are just pages put up by activists bent on their sectarianism till the cows come home. The OR is worse, though. Clearly, an editor or editors has/have done a whole lot of research here, but it isn't research into secondary academic sources; all of it is original, primary source material for hadith and siyar research. If a scholar or professor wanted to know what different Muslim scholars thought, they would look into ancient, voluminous books such as Majma al-Fawaid, Tabaqat al Kubra and Tarikh Qom. If this isn't original research, then original research does not exist - it's the clearest example I've seen on Wikipedia in years. If I read Siyar A'lam al Nubala for example, then I get Dhahabi's opinion, but if I use that to cite a claim (as this article does) about what Muslims believe then I am now performing my own, original research. That isn't how Wikipedia works, and the editor(s) would be better off submitting this to a web magazine or some other non-encyclopedia willing to publish their research. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:46, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment -- I know nothing of the subject matter, but am concerned at the scale of quotations from primary sources and the lack of citations of scholarly discussions. I wonder whether some of this might be merged into the bio-article of one or both spouses.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey User:Peterkingiron, thanks for responding. Are you suggesting that merging is a possibility, or is most likely preferable to deletion? (Not trying to drag things out, just want to make sure there is a definite resolution - a lot of Islam-related AfDs have gone without any participation at all lately.) MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, j⚛e deckertalk 06:36, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I was hinting at a merger. HOwever, I know so little of the subject that I do not feel able to vote.  Whether a marriage between two people of whom I had never heard happened and whether it was significant are not known to me.  The allegation certainly appears to alter acceppted views (from what I read in the article).  If so the subject should be covered in WP, but that does not necessarily require a separate article.  It may be far more appropriate to add a short section to each relevant bio-article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 08:05, 14 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 02:24, 19 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete per MezzoMezzo. It's OR, not neutral, and of questionable notability. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 02:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.