Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Uprising of the Iga Ninja


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Considering that the article has no inline references, cites only one source, which is non-English and therefore difficult to verify, and moreover of disputed reliability, I must give more weight to the reasonable concerns that this content is unverifiable (WP:V). This does not prevent the recreation of a better-sourced new article.  Sandstein  11:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Uprising of the Iga Ninja

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For a number of reasons. Historically the war was an invasion of territory rather than an uprising so even the previous attempt at a Redirect to Iga Province would not work. The entire article is a fiction couched in historical events. There was no uprising of ninja clans - the single source is not reliable and could be nothing more than an attempt to enforce a romantic view or mixing up of fact with fictional role playing games.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions.  Jinkinson   talk to me  16:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 19:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.   S ven M anguard   Wha?  23:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Author source А. М. Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу. Тэнсё Ига-но ран: Alexey Mikhailovich Gorbylev (Алексей Михайлович Горбылев) is expert on Japan Ph.D. - Defended PhD dissertation at Moscow State University in 1999, the Institute of Asia and Africa. Gorbylev AM Cult of mountains in the medieval outlook on Japan material monument of XII century. "These Sedzan" : Cult of mountains in the medieval worldview of Japan At the end of the twelfth article of the monument in Sedzan Yonggi (Tales of the mountains) dissertation by WAC 07.00.03, Ph.D. Gorbylev, Alexis.. А.М.Горбылев. Ниндзя. Боевое искусство - another edition of this book: А.М.Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу (second source - А.М.Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу or А.М.Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу). Аннотация. Эта книга написана человеком, сочетающим в одном лице историка-япониста и практика традиционных японских боевых искусств по школе Катори Синто-рю. Она совершенно уникальна в том смысле, что автор опирается на материалы,, практически неизвестные за пределами Японии: исследования японских историков нин-дзюцу, старинные хроники, трактаты самих ниндзя. Книга читается словно захватывающий боевик, но при этом все, что в ней говорится, исторически достоверно. - Abstract. This book is written by a man, combining in one person yaponista historian and practice of traditional Japanese martial arts school Katori Shinto Ryu. It is quite unique in the sense that the author relies on materials, Virtually unknown outside Outside of Japan: Japanese historians study ninjutsu, ancient chronicles, treatises themselves ninja. The book reads like an exciting fighter, but That's all, what it says, historically accurate.. А.М.Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу or А.М.Горбылев. Путь невидимых: подлинная история ниндзюцу - citation in scientific papers. Many Wikipedia articles rely on scholarly material. When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources Vyacheslav84 (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The value of the source has been discussed ad nauseum here.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 06:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * "Delete" as per the reasons initially given.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 18:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom: this article is not supported by reliable sources, and appears to be fiction. Nick-D (talk) 01:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep and move. The article as it stands is certainly a mess, but claiming it to be fiction is going a bridge too far. The incident described by the article (the two Oda invasions of Iga province) is historical and notable, as was the so-called "Iga Republic". I don't understand why the "uprising" in the article's title is being given such significance, as it's a legitimate (if not particularly good) translation of the 乱 in the most common Japanese name of the topic, but a better title would probably be the Tensho Iga War.--Cckerberos (talk) 03:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BC%8A%E8%B3%80%E6%B5%81#.E5.A4.A9.E6.AD.A3.E4.BC.8A.E8.B3.80.E3.81.AE.E4.B9.B1 and https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A9%E6%AD%A3%E4%BC%8A%E8%B3%80%E3%81%AE%E4%B9%B1 --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 07:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * http://scholar.google.ru/scholar?hl=ru&q=Tensho+Iga+no+Ran&btnG= and http://www.google.com/search?q=Tensho+Iga+no+Ran&tbm=bks&hl=ru&safe=active&oq=Tensho+Iga+no+Ran&gs_l=heirloom-serp.12...0.0.0.9449.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac..24.heirloom-serp..0.0.0.ViiJ9mvl5J8 --Vyacheslav84 (talk) 07:22, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JodyBtalk 02:35, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep and move. In need of editing, but the article is certainly not a complete work of fiction as has been suggested. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ebTKZbxIayQC&lpg=PA42&ots=nFtEiC0mzn&dq=Tensho%20Iga%20War&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q=Tensho%20Iga%20War&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.202.220 (talk) 09:57, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The historically correct and relevant part of the article is already covered in Iga Province.  The article duplicates that and then adds a whole incoherent mess which distorts the events.  For that reason a redirect is the least option.  The outright deletion was because the title reflected a fantasy role and the mass of redirects generated by the original author serves no purpose.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment How does it distort the events? What is fictional about the contents? You provide no specifics in your allegations, which make them very hard to respond to. I don't speak Russian and therefore can't check the source, but remove or tone down the mentions of ninja and I find no major inaccuracies in the article's content. Instead, the main problem as it stands now is that it is confusing to follow and is (except for a couple paragraphs in the body) concerned with ikki in the late Sengoku period rather than the subject of the article. That should be removed (and could be integrated into the article on the ikko ikki, I guess). But... there doesn't seem to be a real argument for deletion here, as far as I can see. Does the topic of the article (the Oda invasions of Iga province) meet the criteria for notability? Do reliable sources on the topic exist? The answer to both of those questions is yes (even if those reliable sources aren't currently being used). To me, that indicates that the solution is editing, not deletion. The title can be easily changed, and a redirect to the Iga province article seems unreasonable since it has the same problems with sourcing and ninja material as this article and only includes a single sentence on the invasions. --Cckerberos (talk) 13:58, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If one were to "remove or tone down the mentions of ninja" and it be edited and proper sources used, rather than the dubious Russian source (the reliability of which there is no way to confirm, while there are numerous reasons to put it in question)... how would it then be different from Iga Province? The article has a dubious title, a single dubious source, it is written so badly as to confuse more than it informs and, at best, it merely duplicates what is present elsewhere, for no good reason. Aside from the title, any one of those is reason enough, on its own, to delete it. If you think the topic deserves an article... either completely re-write the article, or let it be deleted and then write a new one, once you are able to.
 * Wikipedia is not a repository for badly written and badly sourced crap, even if the topic that it covers, is a worthy one.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 16:53, 21 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Any part of the article that is covered by the Russian source, but not other (reliable) sources, and which is not already covered in Iga Province, is more or less a work of fiction. Well... whether it is or not, there is no reliable evidence that can be used to show the truth of any of it, so in practice, it is no different from fiction.--ZarlanTheGreen (talk) 17:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.