Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ustad Ghulam Mohammed Khan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify. (non-admin closure) &#x222F; WBG converse 15:41, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Ustad Ghulam Mohammed Khan

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Fails WP:GNG. Störm  (talk)  12:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Regretful delete - This man appears to have been most notable as the teacher of Noor Jehan, however, none of the sources give anything more than a fleeting reference. FOARP (talk) 12:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Questionable identity? Is the above article really about the music teacher of notable Pakistani singer Noor Jehan or about the noted sarangi player Ghulam Muhammad? For example shown here on this Independent Reliable Music Source - sarangi.info - North Indian Classical Music Archive Ghulam Muhammad (sarangi player). Appears to me this article creator has been lately creating several NEW articles about notable sarangi players without first adequately giving enough information about his subject person (no mention of Noor Jehan in his created article) or using References that are considered Unreliable by this Discussion Forum's nominator. So they end up here for Deletion. Are we going round and round in circles? Create and Delete...Create more and Delete even more? Is that the story of Wikipedia now? Frankly, I am hoping for someone from Wikipedia staff to step in and clarify this, please. I mean it sincerely and I don't mean to blame the Article Creator here or the Deletion Nominator. To FOARP above, I totally agree with your above comment "Regretful delete", if it's Noor Jehan's music teacher indeed. I would like to ask you maybe you saw something in your GoogleSearch that I did not see to make the Noor Jehan connection. Please feel free to leave a link here or on my Talk page, I am willing and find it worth my time to spend some time on Noor Jehan's music teacher's article.


 * By the way, I did run into this Pakistani newspaper The Friday Times article where Noor Jehan talks about her music teacher Ghulam Muhammad in a newspaper interview...(Noor Jehan) Malika-e-Tarannum speaks...Ngrewal1 (talk) 01:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * User:Dommiraubi As a fellow Pakistani music enthusiast, I do fully appreciate you creating these NEW articles for very notable sarangi players of Pakistan. I would love to contribute to them, if they survive on this Discussion Forum!!! There, now I have shown my true feelings about it. Ngrewal1 (talk) 01:45, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I assume they are the same person as they use the same full name in the article. As I said my delete is regretful - I think it entirely possible that there is Pakistani newspaper coverage from the 50's, 60's, and 70's that might help, but this is not accessible online. FOARP (talk) 08:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that online news coverage is not accessible going back to the 1950s and 1960s. Only the CREATOR of the above original article knows who he/she wrote this article for. Really it's their choice to step forward and say something to remove the confusion. It's awkward for me to be guessing back and forth here. He/she can also choose to include some more info in their created article even now. Ngrewal1 (talk) 18:05, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Since nobody is stepping forward to provide more info, I would like to ask here to Move it to draft space . I would like to have some time to work on it. In 2018, I was able to significantly improve two other sarangi players' articles - Allah Rakha (sarangi) and Bundu Khan. In the past, I only know how to create new articles and move them directly onto Wikipedia main space. I have never first worked from the Draft space. If I am allowed to work on this article, I ask that someone leave some helpful links on my Talk page so I can access this article and then work on it. Ngrewal1 (talk) 19:21, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Draftify, per Ngrewal1. No reason not to let someone keep working on it if they volunteer, even if it can't stay in the article space. /Julle (talk) 23:56, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Draftify, per Ngrewal1.4meter4 (talk) 01:41, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  NNADI GOOD LUCK  ( Talk &#124; Contribs ) 11:24, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep as i have added the references now. Memon KutianaWala (talk) 12:11, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks so much Memon KutianaWala for adding the references. it's refreshing to finally see someone make an effort. In next few days, I'll try to add more info to the article without disturbing your references.Ngrewal1 (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - Sources are still bad, mentioning subject in passing. Pendragon0 (talk) 13:42, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Draftify per policy; as noted, offline sources are likley to exist, and so per WP:OFFLINE, we see no distinction between using online versus offline sources. Likewise, WP:OSO notes that placing the onus of notability onto online sources only is very much an argument to avoid. While the former is a supplement to one policy, and the latter an essay on another, these are useful guides in our negotiation of borderline, pre-http// topics. If the new references are deemed of sufficient quality then the closer can consider my !vote shifted to keep. ——  SN  54129  13:58, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment -, , , I reviewed my nomination and accordinglu rewritten the article. , please add the Urdu sources (you said you have 5-10 sources in Urdu language) below as Ngrewal may review them for inclusion in the article.

I am still not convinced that he is notable as sources refer to many Ustad Ghulam Mohammad Khan, so whom we consider notable? One who invented surbahar and was from 19th-century, or one who was from Gaya, India, see Ustad Ghulam of Gaya. I was very confused but still tried to prove his notability. I don't know User_talk:Dommiraubi created this article for which Ustad Gulam Mohammad.

I found a new reference of Jang which I used to expand the article. But, still, this Ustad Gulam fails WP:NMUSICIAN, WP:SIGCOV. I think we should draftify this article for future development until it is ready for publication. Störm  (talk)  12:04, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Also they look different, see in this directory, and in this video (1:13) probably near 2000.
 * Comment Thanks Störm  for spending some time on helping figure things out for all of us since the article creator did not remove the confusion to help us. I have read all the existing references at the article after you finished editing it. Seems to me, after watching the above given video added by you, that we need to obviously focus on one Ghulam Mohammed at a time. Anyone interested can easily create other Ghulam Mohammed articles later. So my best guess and thought is …. let's make this article about the sarangi player Ghulam Mohammed that the newspapers The Express Tribune, The News International or Daily Jang are talking about whose grandson is currently a sarangi player in Karachi. Then we need to forget about the connection to the music teacher of Noor Jehan who used to live and teach Noor Jehan in Lahore. Besides  that Ghulam Mohammed was a vocalist musician teaching vocal singing to Noor Jehan. If you agree, then we might need to change the death date to an earlier time than 2000? Please let me know --Thanks Ngrewal1 (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I will be happy if you make any helpful. This article will be drafted after which you are free to build it. Störm   (talk)  18:24, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Draftify I got a couple of passing hits, but this may be a case of Wikipedia's English language bias. So I will go for draft rather than delete.Slatersteven (talk) 12:15, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.